The Nathan Barry Show

[00:00:00] Jefferson: I was gaining a hundred to

[00:00:01] 150,000 followers a day.

[00:00:03] Nathan: Wow.

[00:00:04] Jefferson: Three quick comebacks. How to stop over, share how to disagree out fighting.

[00:00:08] Nathan: Most creators struggle to hold attention. Jefferson Fisher can do it in just three seconds. How much time do you think you spend creating content? About 40 minutes a day.

[00:00:16] Jefferson: Make it exist. Make it perfect. Later, Jefferson's, a trial attorney turned content creator with 6 million Instagram followers. People are asking, can I fire my attorney? And how are you? If you're making good content, they will want to know about you.

[00:00:28] Nathan: His short form videos feel effortless, but there's a system behind everyone, and today we're unpacking exactly how he does it.

[00:00:35] Jefferson: It's the story that's compelling. I think that's where people go wrong, is they, they're looking for views, in my opinion. The most important metric is your, be the exact same person on screen as you are off screen. 'cause people can know the difference.

[00:00:49] Nathan: What are some of the other things that you look at when analyzing someone's video?

[00:00:52] Jefferson: If you're a creator and you're looking to increase your following, there's three things that you can do. Number one, reduce the amount of fluff at the beginning. You're wasting time. Two, make your clips much shorter. That makes 'em digestible than three. I love that.

[00:01:11] Nathan: Jefferson, you've gone from zero to almost 6 million followers on Instagram in basically two years. Is that right?

[00:01:18] Jefferson: Yeah. It's been, uh, like just hanging onto a rocket ship with your, with your fingertips is kind of what it feels like.

[00:01:26] Nathan: How many videos did it take that you posted on Instagram? Mm-hmm. Before you had the first one hit a million views

[00:01:31] on Instagram?

[00:01:33] Jefferson: It probably took. Maybe 12. Okay. Videos. And it was, uh, the video specifically on how to argue, like mm-hmm. Or what to do in communication. Because before I had my first few videos were just me doing dumb stuff. I, I was just figuring out how to make a reel. Okay. I didn't, I didn't know. So my first videos are super cringey.

[00:01:55] They're terrible.

[00:01:56] Nathan: Uh, are they

[00:01:56] still up?

[00:01:57] Jefferson: Oh yeah. I left them for myself. Yeah. I mean, just to remind myself like what, where, where I came from and all that. I think that's so

[00:02:03] good as a creator. Like if you, you know, to be able to scroll back and someone else's content and be like, oh yeah, your early stuff is just as bad as my early stuff.

[00:02:11] Like M-K-B-H-D, uh, the YouTuber has done a great example of this. Like you can go back to him. And you can see him at like 14 years old on YouTube. Oh, yeah. And they're terrible videos. Right. But like, you can see him steadily get better.

[00:02:22] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:02:22] Jefferson: I mean, my, my first stuff I, I googled, how do you make a reel?

[00:02:25] Like what do you do? I, I, I had no clue. And so this whole concept of just making these videos right now, they're, they're not understanding what it took to get there. Yeah. I can barely look at these old videos. I mean, they are super cringey, uh, to me, but without them, I, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now.

[00:02:43] Nathan: Yeah. So when you decided to start making reels, what was the goal?

[00:02:48] Jefferson: When I first started making reels, the goal was to promote my law firm. Okay. I just started a, a new law firm. I had been a partner at a big defense firm, decided to go off on my own. And so I, I begin and I think, well, I, I need to be on social media.

[00:03:03] So I started making videos about what to do after an accident or little bitty things about the law. But I just realized. It, it's, it was terrible. Like nobody, I'm not giving anybody any kind of value with that.

[00:03:18] Nathan: It was

[00:03:18] so specific on Yeah. These one niche cases and what you're doing instead is very, very broad.

[00:03:24] Jefferson: Exactly. Broadly applicable.

[00:03:25] Yeah. And I mean, it, it just, it wasn't even so much the topic because there are attorneys that are out there that do great content on legal stuff. It just, it did not feel natural to me because it felt more like I was selling mm-hmm. Myself. And it just wasn't, it didn't fulfill me creatively 'cause I didn't feel like I was really helping anybody.

[00:03:46] I mean, how the only time somebody needs a personal injury attorney is when they're in an accident, like the worst time ever. So what are you preparing them for? And instead, I, I thought, well, what can I do to help be at the dinner table? How can I be in their daily conversations, what can I give? Mm-hmm. To truly just help them for, for no reason whatsoever.

[00:04:07] That's how it started.

[00:04:08] Nathan: Yeah. So for someone who hasn't seen the videos, yeah. Is there an example of a video maybe that's done really well or something that, that you teach that, uh, would resonate that, that you'd share in that like minute clip?

[00:04:19] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:04:20] Yeah. Here's one that is typically does well, um, is how to handle somebody who belittles you.

[00:04:26] Mm-hmm.

[00:04:27] Nathan: That's actually the one I was thinking of.

[00:04:28] Jefferson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my, my videos are less than a minute and I always break them down in, into three. So I'll begin with how to handle somebody who belittles you. Number one, make them say it again. Meaning you're gonna ask them to repeat it. Say, uh, can you, when they belittle you, you're gonna say, can you say that again?

[00:04:44] Can you you repeat that? I didn't catch that. You're getting to say it again. 'cause you're taking away that, that he dopamine that response that they were wanting. Two, if they repeat it back to you, you then are going to ask a question of intent. And that typically begins with, did you mean like, did you mean for that to hurt me?

[00:05:00] Did you mean for that to embarrass me or upset me in some way? And three, no matter what their response is. Just let it go because what you've done is you're gonna make them look like an absolute, um, not nice person while you're the one that doesn't have to, to hold the weight of the consequence of their words.

[00:05:18] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:05:19] I love that. I love that example specifically because it's so different than what most people would teach. Most people would teach like a Right. Oh, here's how to have the quick response or whatever. The clap backs. Yeah, the clap backs and yeah. This is totally different.

[00:05:31] Jefferson: Yeah. They, I've, there's definitely a space for the quick clap backs.

[00:05:36] Mm-hmm. People like some of that, but it doesn't, those things don't last. And so instead I try to teach these like frameworks of mm-hmm. How to handle the conversation in real time. So that's how I got started. I, I thought, well, what's one thing I know in my world that I believe I know better than anybody else?

[00:05:52] And that's how to communicate.

[00:05:53] Nathan: Right?

[00:05:53] Jefferson: And so that's how it started. I thought, well, what can I do? I, I said, well, I guess I'll teach him how to argue. And I got my phone out in my truck and said how to argue like a lawyer, part one. And that's how it went. And that was the first one to hit a million. That was not the first one to hit the million.

[00:06:10] Okay. The fourth video, how to argue like a lawyer. Part four.

[00:06:13] Part four

[00:06:13] was the first one. And then, and then just continued to spiral and grow from, from there.

[00:06:20] I wanna get into scripting and, and all of that, but first there's, as I've watched the creator economy Yeah. And I have this seat where I get to see everyone's list growth, all of that thing, all of that from mm-hmm.

[00:06:34] Nathan: You know, 60,000 plus creators using kit. A trend that I've noticed is people being an expert in their field.

[00:06:42] Mm-hmm.

[00:06:43] Not in any creator type world.

[00:06:45] Mm-hmm.

[00:06:45] And they've honed these skills, this level of expertise, and then they show up to play the creator game.

[00:06:50] Mm-hmm.

[00:06:51] And they often have these outsized successes.

[00:06:55] So Huberman is a good example of this. Mm-hmm. Where it's not like, oh yeah, he came out of nowhere and absolutely blew, right. He did as a creator.

[00:07:02] Jefferson: Right.

[00:07:03] Nathan: But it's like, well, he is, you know, already a neuroscientist and like Yeah, yeah, yeah. At Stanford and all of this. And so he took this level of expertise and, and then said, lemme play the creator game with credibility, with skill.

[00:07:14] And so I think that's what I see from you is like honing the career. You know, you've done communication, you've done all of these things. As a lawyer, you have so much credibility and expertise. You know, I wanna learn how to argue from a lawyer, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, I don't know, what do you think about that?

[00:07:31] Is that a trend that you've noticed as well, of someone making the switch into the creative world? I've seen both.

[00:07:35] Jefferson: So I've seen both. Mm-hmm. So I've seen people who have, let's say, uh, a given expertise. Yeah. And they try their hand at social media. I've also seen the people who have grown a following by faking the expertise.

[00:07:50] People who Yes. Are, they're just really copying things they've read off the internet. Mm-hmm. And just repackaging them in a different way. And I, they can grow an audience like that. I just think over time it's not sustainable because they're gonna be asked to go speak, they're gonna ask to write a book, they're gonna ask to do whatever, and they're not gonna have the chops for it.

[00:08:08] I find it much more successful and authentic when you can have, uh, like Andrew's kind of model where he has an immense amount of knowledge Right. In a given topic. And that just makes it so much easier because it's genuine when it's time to make the content, make the podcast, whatever. I mean, uh, even with Andrew, he's not a, a creator, so to speak.

[00:08:29] Mm-hmm. Has a podcast that does incredibly well. And so that's very different from people who, I mean, that, that's just to say you can creators come in all shapes and mm-hmm. And sizes or whatever you want to call it, uh, influencers, whatever. But I've, I've definitely seen it work to the benefit when they actually have a, a true expertise.

[00:08:48] Yep. That they're sharing.

[00:08:49] Nathan: Yeah, I

[00:08:50] like that.

[00:08:50] Okay, so these reels that you're putting together

[00:08:53] Jefferson: mm-hmm.

[00:08:54] Nathan: Take me through the process of coming up with the idea all the way through to posting it on Instagram.

[00:09:00] Jefferson: Yeah. So this is how it, it happens. Let's, and then let's put it maybe a few months ago before all the book stuff.

[00:09:08] Yeah. When I'm in the office at the law firm and I'm working a full day until about 3 45, and then in those 15 minutes from 3 45 to four, I'm thinking of a topic that I can use from my day, or maybe I got a email or a question from someone and then that's what I go, okay, what could I share? What could I teach someone with that?

[00:09:34] I don't think of everybody, I just think of one person. Mm-hmm. What could I teach one person with that? And then I kind of just go, okay, I, I got one and then I go to the car and my stuff's all packed up 'cause I'm gonna be going home. And I get my phone out and I just riff on those three points. And so my formula is super simple that anybody can apply.

[00:09:58] It's, I tell them exactly what the video's about. So it's how to handle a difficult person, how to have a difficult, difficult conversation, how to handle someone who interrupts you. Then the next out of my mouth are going to be number one, and I'm telling it to you right then. So I typically, before I do it, I have an idea of what those three points will be.

[00:10:16] And it takes me about, um, 30 to 40 minutes total for the whole entire video. And truly, the, the longest part of it is the captions. Instagram's captions, um, have come a long way because they were rough. They were really rough and I didn't really know how to download another app and use some other, I didn't wanna mess with that.

[00:10:38] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:10:39] Jefferson: So I use, I always use just Instagram's own captions. Um, so I'd get done with making the video. And it's never scripted. It's never written out, and I don't, I've never batched any content. Mm. So it's always, when I post it that day, I made it that day. Oh, wow. Yeah. And, which is probably not the smartest use of time, but that's what I've, that's what's worked for me.

[00:11:05] And then I, and then I'm typically posting it. I have like a method where I'll find a parking lot. It might be in my office or somewhere else. That's where I record the video and then I go home, get into the driveway. I might review it one more time and I press post, and then I'm like, put it down. And then I pull into the garage, garage door opens, and then I'm dad.

[00:11:27] That's kind of how that, that rolls and the phone goes away. And the phone goes away. Yeah. Now I might, um, respond a little bit to. Comments at the very early to show interaction or get rid of all the, the spam comments. Yeah. That are insane. Um, but that's really it. And I, I might, when I'm recording and doing, um, my three steps, I might, my, my whole goal is to, how can I eliminate words instead of this, I, I know about how many seconds each point needs to have for it to be less than 50 seconds, 45 seconds or whatever.

[00:12:02] And then I would test, should I have a longer first point or a short, shorter first point compared to the second one? Or, and I would test how long I would make them.

[00:12:12] Nathan: And so, and, and when you're testing them Yeah. That's just comparing. Mm-hmm.

[00:12:15] Jefferson: Real to real. Exactly. You're not running a split test. Nope. Yeah.

[00:12:18] Yeah. I'm not doing a split test. And so, which probably would've been smart, but Nathan, I don't know this stuff, so I, I, um, yeah. So I would, I would just, I. Uh, once I made a point, I might think, oh, I think I like how I just said that, and I would tweak it to use that. So he takes a few takes and also if I'm not feeling it, I don't do it.

[00:12:39] Hmm. If it's not coming together, I don't do it. I mean, that's just kind of my mentality. If I'm having a hard time teaching someone I to do that, then, then it's not true to that moment and life goes on.

[00:12:50] Nathan: So then, are you doing it like the final video? Is that in one take or are you editing together the, you know, four or five takes?

[00:12:57] Oh, I edit together.

[00:12:58] Jefferson: Okay. A few times I've done, I would test a no points and I'm just going to say something for 30 seconds and be done and, um, just riff off it from there. But I'm doing the swipe. I, I'm just, I'm using my phone. I'm using my phone. This one right here? Yeah. Where I just do it in front of my face and I swipe it down.

[00:13:20] I might lean over to my side, swipe it up, swipe it down, and I mean, that's all I'm, that's all I'm doing. So my, my transitions aren't. Anything crazy. It's just my phone swiping up, swiping down. Right.

[00:13:31] Nathan: So then you were telling me that you can watch like a friend's Instagram reel or something like that.

[00:13:37] Mm-hmm. And you're, you know, they haven't posted it yet and you immediately know, oh, this is gonna work. Or Yeah. That one's not going anywhere. Yeah. What are the things that you notice?

[00:13:48] Jefferson: The beginning, like in the first three seconds? What I, I see a lot with creators is they say something like this, I get this question all the time.

[00:13:58] What should you do? And you go, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, here's what I, here's what you should do. Like, they just wasted seven seconds. Okay. Of time. Because they began with, I get this question all the time. I don't care, number one, no you don't. Number one is, no you don't. You're saying that probably nobody's ever asked you that.

[00:14:17] You're only saying that because you are afraid that you're gonna start saying something and people aren't gonna find you have any credibility. So they. They have this desire of, I need to say that everybody asked me this, so it looks like I have more expertise or I have more credibility. You don't need to do that.

[00:14:33] And social media, you just need to start talking. They will decide if you have the credibility or not. I mean, they, they will decide that, uh, for you. So you just need to start talking about it. So instead of this, let's, let's say if it was one of my videos, if I said, um, you know, how to talk in a podcast, and I swipe down, and the first swipe is, you know, I do a lot of podcasts and every time I get a podcast, I get these kind of questions.

[00:15:00] And here's what I've come up with. Number one, you've just burn. You've, you've, you've lost them. You've lost them. So a lot of the times I am shortening and shortening and shortening the clips of saying, you don't need to talk about that. It's like with, um, juries as an attorney, you might think that there's this piece of evidence that's really crucial.

[00:15:18] You think, oh, this is a really good point. I'm, I, they, they need to hear this. And then you talk to the jury at the end, you're like, how did this piece of evidence do? And they're like, it didn't do anything. I, no, that's not how we came the decision. We, we totally disregarded that we liked this piece of information.

[00:15:32] And you're like, Hmm, what are you talking about? So it just goes to show we're terrible at judging our own, like subjective content.

[00:15:43] Nathan: So what you're doing here is monitor, or like looking at the video mm-hmm. And how it resonated from a friend. The first thing is diving right into the content, like get, get straight to the point.

[00:15:53] Jefferson: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:54] Nathan: What are some of the other things, especially in the retention? 'cause retention matters a lot on Instagram as well.

[00:15:58] Jefferson: You have to make sure that the value you're giving is just as strong as the first point. So let's put it in terms of my content that I give. If my second point is, uh, absolutely not helpful at all, they're not gonna stay engaged.

[00:16:11] If, if, or maybe you don't do three points. Your story has to be compelling. It's you just needing to give them a reason to continue to watch. And that means whatever is at the end of the video, they're wanting to. Get. And so with mine, if they always know there's three points, my retention's very high.

[00:16:27] 'cause they always know there's going to be three. And so they will watch at least until the third. And so, 'cause it's like you never know what you're going to get. Right. And sometimes I wait and put my most, to me, my most valuable point on the third. 'cause you're training them because I'm training them to wait for the, the end.

[00:16:48] And that has a big benefit. I, I think a lot of people go wrong by just meandering. They don't get straight to the point and they're not thinking of what kind of value they're, they're really offering. Like there's another guy who is an attorney, I forget his Instagram handle. And he started later than me and he just drinks coffee in his car.

[00:17:15] And he talks about his kids. He just, he comes up with these jokes. And they're hilarious, but it's the story that's compelling. And so as long as you're telling a story that's ultimately gonna lead to an entertainment value. Mm-hmm. Uh, educational value, I mean that's, I think that's where people go wrong, is they, they're looking for views when, in my opinion, the most important metric is your shares.

[00:17:41] The shares are what is informing you. Is my content shareable? Is it valuable? Um, that is way more of a better indicator for you than than views because views are, are very much a, a vanity metric. And that's, that's me saying, I mean, for past years I've had almost a million views on every video. Mm-hmm.

[00:18:04] That's cool. I'll still have sometimes a, a million views, but low shares. To me is more an honest look at, is what I'm giving truly something that is helping people in their life.

[00:18:17] Nathan: Did it resonate enough that I'm like, oh, I gotta text this to my wife. You got it. I've gotta, you know, someone came to mind where Yes.

[00:18:23] Where it's very applicable to a day-to-day situation.

[00:18:26] Jefferson: Exactly. And one of my favorite comments, Nathan, is when I see a comment and someone goes, this is the guy I was telling you about. And they tag their friend Yes. And I'm like, they, this is it. Like that's, that's social media to me of, I mean, that's connecting people, sharing the content of they send it to their kids, uh, grandparents, whatever.

[00:18:49] Right? I mean, it's something that, um, that to me speaks to my heart and mission of just helping people by their communication and seeing their life transform out of it.

[00:19:00] Nathan: But I think it's also an interesting metric or an interesting goal to use when planning your content. I could totally see where you're planning out the content or someone who's very meticulous and they're like, okay, here's the script.

[00:19:12] And I've used AI to help me write it and all of that. Right. You know, and here's the thing, and, and this will get watch time through to the end. Yeah. And they could totally miss. Yeah. But is it useful? Yeah. Is it shareable?

[00:19:23] Jefferson: Yeah. I find, um, I find that there's a lot of danger in that now. I, trust me, you don't always, you're not, I'm not saying that you need to do what I'm doing at all, and my stuff is not batched.

[00:19:36] My stuff is not thought out. Mm-hmm. I start the day, it's not, it's after lunch, and I still don't know what kind of video I'm gonna make. I mean, I just, I know I'm gonna make one. What about, I don't know. I like that because it makes sure that whatever I'm saying is inspired by that moment. Right. And so I feel inspired by it.

[00:19:55] I feel excited about it and I wanna share it, versus if it's batched out for the next two weeks, or, yeah, you have AI help with X, Y, and Z because then. You set these expectations that you set yourself up to be disappointed possibly. Mm-hmm. You, you set your expectations of, oh, well, I'm expecting X amount of views and you don't get them, or you're expecting X amount of whatever and you don't get them.

[00:20:21] And that's easy to get down on yourself. Right. But if you're just doing it in the spur of the moment, it's like, okay, didn't, didn't resonate that, but it's also, you know, what are you doing it for? Because I might have a video that goes low, but somebody comments, I, I might be down on the video, say, man, nobody liked this video.

[00:20:37] Right. Somebody will comment, this is the best one you've ever done. And I'm like, okay, well, you know what? Like, that's, that's a, that's a, um, that's a healthy metric for me. As long as I'm going back to my very original goal. I, I, there's a, my point is there's a problem when people feel like their views are entitled.

[00:20:56] They feel like they're entitled to the views. They feel like they deserve the view or the share or whatever. And that's, that's a bad place to be in social media when you feel like you're entitled to it.

[00:21:06] Nathan: Yeah, that makes sense. I'm thinking about the videos being inspired by your day.

[00:21:12] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:21:12] Nathan: Do you think that your content would get worse if you stopped being a practicing lawyer and like no.

[00:21:18] Didn't have those day to day interactions?

[00:21:20] Jefferson: Uh, no, because I mean, I still have those memories of like, yeah, you're still dealing with, there's, there's, there's, uh, grouchy people all over the place. Um, because it's

[00:21:27] Nathan: communication.

[00:21:28] Jefferson: Exactly.

[00:21:29] Nathan: And so you're going to, it would really only be your content gets worse if you decide to go live in the mountains in a cabin by yourself.

[00:21:35] Yeah. And you don't interact with your myself.

[00:21:36] Jefferson: Exactly. If I just decide to become a hermit, you know, then that's, and not talk to anybody. That's probably, probably right. But, you know, I, I, I've had 10 plus years of, of. Trials in courtroom and have plenty of stories. So it's not like it's, I always have something to, to draw from and yeah.

[00:21:53] I think if I was a, if I wasn't an attorney, it, it probably wouldn't be nearly as authority leading. Right. So I, I, I fully recognize that.

[00:22:01] Nathan: Yeah. What are some of the other things that you look at when analyzing someone's video?

[00:22:06] Jefferson: Um, time. So shorter time.

[00:22:08] Nathan: The, because you can go long longer than the 50 seconds, but you're just, you're really trying to keep 'em tight.

[00:22:14] Jefferson: Yeah. So you can go up to, I guess, what was it, a minute? 30? Yeah. Two minutes now on Instagram. I know they've, and they've, TikTok has, yeah. They've made it longer. Um, and that's, that just depends. I, I think there are some episodes. Episodes, there's some videos you can make that you do want to go a little bit longer, but I, I find that the shorter it is, the easier it is to digest.

[00:22:35] Mm-hmm. The easier it is to share, like when I'm talking to a jury. I go in a rule of three, there's three things I'm gonna tell you about in this case. 1, 2, 3 makes it easy for them to memorize. It's the power of the rule of three.

[00:22:47] Nathan: Well, I've been on a jury and it was a like, I guess a week long case and you know, you're taking notes 'cause you have no idea what's gonna be important.

[00:22:55] All of this. Exactly. So if you tell me there's three things you gotta know. I'm like, all right, 1, 2, 3. Okay, what are they?

[00:22:59] Jefferson: Yep, exactly.

[00:23:00] Nathan: You know, and you've got my attention. Mm-hmm.

[00:23:01] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:23:01] Nathan: And yeah, that makes a big difference.

[00:23:04] Jefferson: You're trying to, um, in the legal world, I, it is like, I don't have to take 40 books mm-hmm.

[00:23:11] And turn it into three sentences. Like that's, that's the goal. As an attorney, a trial attorney specifically, you have, you have years of evidence, years of documents. I have this much of an attention span because somebody woke up and they're tired and they just dropped their kids off. They don't really wanna be there.

[00:23:30] Or they just got done eating Mexican food on their lunch break and they're tired. They want to go home. And I have this much, uh, time to try and capture their attention. And it's the same way on making a, a video. I have a lot I could talk about on how to handle belittling or people who are condescending or having difficult, uh, conversations.

[00:23:48] It's how do I crunch that down into three bite-sized pieces that are practical. I think that's what sets really good creators than, uh, at least in the educational space. There's some videos I like just because they're entertaining or they're funny. Or, um, the ones of people cooking food, like they're, I just get mesmerized by them.

[00:24:07] Uh, like just watching the whole thing? Yeah. Or, uh, what I really like are ones on. Where somebody posts a song or they're making a tune and somebody adds on like a bass and somebody adds on, uh, yeah. The drums and like you have like a full set band. This, like song's amazing that they keep adding on that kind of stuff.

[00:24:25] I love. So you either have this entertaining value or you have a educational mm-hmm. Value.

[00:24:30] Nathan: I think when you started making content, you were looking for, okay, how do I be on social media in order to grow legal practice?

[00:24:37] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:24:38] Nathan: Uh, obviously it's gotten you tons of clients, all that. Well talk about that for a second.

[00:24:42] Yeah. How did it actually play out in helping you grow the, your legal practice?

[00:24:46] Jefferson: Yeah. I, it, it's something I never saw coming. Uh, it's, it's not something I thought about. Mm-hmm. And when I started posting my videos, I just was gonna be excited that some people saw it. When I first started, I had maybe 800 followers on Instagram.

[00:25:01] All friends from law school in college. And one of my good friends at the time, still good friend, he's an attorney and he had 1200 followers on Instagram. And I remember thinking 1200 followers, that's incredible. A thou over a thousand followers. I was like, that's unreal. Like, how could I ever do that?

[00:25:18] And when my videos started growing and more people started commenting, it started leading to more phone calls to my law firm because people were just seeing my videos, decided, Hey, I like this guy. And they wanted to call my law firm. I didn't even talk about law in my, my videos. It's just if you're making good content, they will want to know about you.

[00:25:39] They'll know about where you are, what you do. And that's how it wrote had played out. So I just had a lot more phone calls all over the states. Uh, I mean emails from all over asking if I could handle their case and. And people are asking, can I fire my attorney? And how are you? Just weird stuff. Right.

[00:25:56] Simply because of the communication videos that they, they saw and they say, Hey, you seem like a, a nice guy. I'm so, they're so used to attorneys not being genuine, not being nice. You know, there's, we don't have the best reputation out there.

[00:26:09] Nathan: I mean, I think about, I first came across your videos because, you know, scrolling through Instagram comes up on the feed and they're like, oh, this is really good.

[00:26:16] Watched it, didn't think anything of it. Mm-hmm. But then a little while later, maybe a few weeks later, came up again in the same format, you know, like I knew that that payoff was going to be there.

[00:26:26] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:26:27] Nathan: But actually, I remember clicking through to your bio and then it going through to like Fisher Firm and, and I was like, oh, this guy's, like, he's actually an attorney.

[00:26:36] That's what he's doing. He's not, I don't know what you had for followers at the time. Right. You know, it was well over 500,000 if not a million or something.

[00:26:42] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:26:43] Nathan: Um, but I remember thinking like, okay, wow, these, he's a practicing attorney, but then there's an interaction with, uh. Our account managers on the kit team where someone posts like, oh, I had this great call today with this, uh, attorney who's kind of blown off on Instagram and all of that.

[00:26:57] Were just helping with his email. And I was like, I bet I know who that is. I looked, I was like, what's Jefferson? The same person's, I follow him on Instagram. That's awesome. So it was funny to see that come together of like Yeah, because you just came to Kit on your own from Yeah, like, I, I like to say that I like me convinced you to sign up or all of that.

[00:27:17] No, but no, you just, you came in and signed up?

[00:27:19] Jefferson: No, me, it was just, I, I just googled and was trying to find something that I thought would work. I mean, I, I didn't, I didn't know squat about squat on getting emails or anything like that. That whole what you would probably call the creator economy. Yeah. Like I, I had no clue Nathan.

[00:27:37] It was, um, I will never forget it. It was February of 20 I. What year is this? It's 25, right? 20 now? Yeah. We're April 25. Oh my gosh. Um, February of 23. And up until that time I might have had maybe

[00:27:58] 300,000 followers. Mm-hmm. Which I thought was incredible. I just a number that was unfathomable to me. And then outta nowhere, it's nowhere of the 1200. Yeah. Oh yeah. I, I was just, I was like, I'm good. I, if I never, I'm, this is amazing. And then I had one video that I had posted two weeks prior start to just take off, and then another one, and another one from two weeks ago.

[00:28:21] And they were all feeding off each other, and then they were going into like the millions and then each, like getting 20 million. Oh, wow. And I went from, all of a sudden my analytics just stopped, like, just stopped it. It was blank. And then my phone started and my, the Instagram app started freezing to where I couldn't.

[00:28:40] Do anything with it. And I said, well, I, I just broke it. Like something's wrong, something's wrong. And it stayed like that for about four days at least. And I was just convinced that some, something happened. I was googling like, is Instagram down? Like, no, nothing. And then finally, um, I was able to open it and I looked at my analytics and it was just a straight line up, like, you know how you have your little graph and it was just, just direct vertical and I was gaining over a hundred to 150,000 followers a day.

[00:29:13] Nathan: Oh, wow.

[00:29:14] Jefferson: And that, that happened for about two weeks. Hmm. Um, and that's when, uh, people with blue check marks, which, you know, this was before everybody had one. Right. Like those people, blue check marks are following me. And then people that are, were celebrities. It was like the rock followed me, like all these big names that I.

[00:29:34] That was when I was like, something, somebody had Instagram messed up, like somebody messed up. I I compared it to, you know, in those movies, Nathan, where like you're trying to break into something's like a heist and the security guard falls asleep and like spills his coffee on the keyboard, you know, and the screen goes black.

[00:29:51] Like that's, I was like, somebody sneezed on a keyboard and uh, just, and was like, and Jefferson exactly goes back Yeah, yeah. I was just waiting for something to um, like them, to just a message me and say, actually this was a mistake. Well, and, uh, no. And so they just continued to take off from there. But I, I've always felt like I'm just playing catch up.

[00:30:13] 'cause I just never, this was never the goal ever. Yeah. Ever, ever, ever. It was never like, if, if I can only get a hundred thousand followers, if I can only just write a book like that was never on, on my bingo

[00:30:25] card.

[00:30:25] Nathan: That's wild. And it's, it's played out. In your law practice as well? Yeah. Oh yeah. Like what's an example of how being internet famous Oh man has played out as your actually practicing law.

[00:30:38] Jefferson: Yeah, you're gonna like this. Uh, so this was, um, about a year and a half ago I was at a trial and you have to pick a jury. Yep. So you have a bunch of people for anybody you already know 'cause you've been in a trial. But they bring all these prospective jurors, people, just regular people who get to slip to come sit in a room and attorneys get to ask them questions to see if they wanna pick them for the jury.

[00:31:01] And I go up, I don't mention my social media and I just talk about my case. And, um, I am asking questions to people. I go sit down, defense attorney stands up. And um, he gets a few questions in, then he says, now anybody here? Um, and he's looking at his sheet, has his glasses down? Anybody here follow, uh, Mr.

[00:31:23] Fisher's, uh, social media? And probably about like 60% of their hands went up. And I remember him like looking up from his sheet and kind of looking around, and it was surprising to me too. And then he asked this, um, you can ask the jurors questions and even if they follow me on social media, that's not disqualifying in any way.

[00:31:49] They just have to be fair and impartial. Mm-hmm. And so he then asked, you have to go through and ask them, even though you follow Mr. Fisher social media, can you still be fair and impartial? Can you, you can't be sympathetic. I mean, you can't be. And, um, because if so he's losing 60% of his. Yeah. And then it's a mistrial.

[00:32:06] Uh, he's, he can't get enough, uh, jurors and so he's asking these questions and the first few say, yep, no, I can do that. No, I mean, it's just the case. And then he asks the wrong person, he, uh, asks this, um, sweet lady. I. And he said, can you be fair and impartial? And she said, no, sir, I don't believe I could.

[00:32:28] And he goes, uh, uh, uh, why is that? Why, why, why is that? He shouldn't have asked that question. And she said, well, I just watched his videos and I think he is so sweet. And it's just, if he's got this case, then it's a real case. And this his, you know, his client is, has a real case. And then some other people like nodded and he was just like, uh, uh, uh, thank you very much.

[00:32:54] And like, within probably 30 minutes we settled the case. Like it was, it was just done because the amount of people who followed, and I, Nathan, I would've never dreamed that I have, every judge I think I've been in front of now, they all follow my stuff. The court reporters, the bailiffs, everybody follows my content.

[00:33:12] I've had it to where I'm at a hearing and a judge I've not been in front of before. Well, right before the end of the hearing, he'll say, Ms. Fisher, I love what you're doing. Like, just, you know, and so like,

[00:33:25] everything's cut and dry. It's all very serious. This is a courtroom business. Exactly. Oh yeah.

[00:33:29] We're all in suits.

[00:33:30] But I love what you're doing. Exactly. We're all in suits, you know, he just, we, we came for what we needed and we're all saying, bye, said, Mr. Fisher, you keep doing what you're doing. Uh, yes, judge. Uh, and so I, I've had it too, where the judge, um, tells the other side, this was on Zoom. Uh, this was during the, he, uh, hearing.

[00:33:48] He goes, uh, Mr. Fisher, I just need to tell you I really, really enjoy your, your videos. I said, well, thank you, judge. He, and he asked the opposing attorney, he says, you follow Mr. Fisher's content? And they said, and they kinda laughed. They kinda laughed because they didn't know about it. He goes, I'm dead serious.

[00:34:04] You, you follow, you should follow it. It's good stuff, great stuff. You keep doing what you're doing like. And so it's still kind of just become this leverage point in especially mediations because they don't want me in front of the jury because a lot of the jurors know me. 'cause I'm, I'm probably the most followed trial attorney in the world and I never thought of it that way in my whole life.

[00:34:26] And so, um, yeah. You talk about the impact that social media can have without even talking about the law.

[00:34:33] Nathan: If you were to like, put all of this data in, you know, in a graph Yeah. Like the settlements that you got before versus like, or like number of cases settled. Yeah. Would you notice a, a influx of like, oh yeah, I'm winning or settling more cases.

[00:34:49] Jefferson: Significant increase on the amount of cases I get. Uh, the amount of settlements love. It's, it's all, it's all been. And the thing is it raises the profile of the whole firm. Mm-hmm. So it's not just me. They recognize it is now the firm and then people who work with my firm and. Yeah. There are other attorneys that work with me that they're the ones getting asked, you know, well, how's, what's Jefferson like?

[00:35:15] Or, uh, can you get him to do X, Y, and Z? Or, it's just a weird, weird world. Is

[00:35:22] Nathan: there a point that you would become too famous or this becomes too much of an advantage that it'd get in the way of practicing law? Or is this like all upside?

[00:35:33] Jefferson: I mean, it's, it's to the point right now where I, I don't practice.

[00:35:38] Okay. In terms of the actual practical side of it. The technical side of it. Mm-hmm. Like I, I have a mediation next week, but by and large I don't attend the mediations. I'm aware of the cases somebody else is handling them. Yeah. Depositions. I don't attend the depositions. Somebody else is handling them.

[00:35:55] Same thing for the hearings.

[00:35:57] Nathan: Um, you have nine, 10 attorneys in your firm. Yeah. And then a, a staff beyond that.

[00:36:00] Jefferson: Uhhuh. Exactly. And um, you know, we have people who do all. Kinds of different practices. Wonderful, wonderful, amazing attorneys. And it's just not, it's not something that I, I, I see as feasible for me to Yeah.

[00:36:15] Like, serve both of them. Now, I still manage the, the firm still very involved in mm-hmm. All of those decisions and what it's doing. But the, this whole side of whatever you wanna call this, the creator stuff, is just, it's, I, I love that I can be as creative as I want to, and I'm just helping so many more people.

[00:36:33] Mm-hmm. And that, that really drives me.

[00:36:36] Nathan: Right. 'cause in, in your firm, you're really helping people at a time that they absolutely need it, but it's one or two people at a time. Yeah. Whereas here, this is thousands or millions.

[00:36:45] Jefferson: Yeah. Well, it's not to say that it's, it's, it's less important. It's not at all. I mean, the people that I'm getting to help mm-hmm.

[00:36:50] It's the most important thing in their world, and it really is significant, the things I can do to help them recover a whole livelihood. Right. You know, and it's just as significant. It's that I. I'm in a place where other people can handle the practice. Right. It's like the working on your business and your business kind of thing.

[00:37:10] Nathan: Do you ever get called in by your, your fellow attorneys on a case maybe that's not going well? Where they're like, Jefferson, we could use a little social media clout. Um,

[00:37:20] Jefferson: I'll get CC'd on things. Okay. That I can tell. They're just doing it to say that they like, they want the other side to see that I'm CC'd.

[00:37:29] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:37:29] Jefferson: Um, Jefferson's aware of this case. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, that's really what it is. But I mean, yeah, thankfully the attorneys in my, uh, my firm, my dad included, you know mm-hmm. They're, they're excellent. So, but yeah, I, I do get, um, I do get brought in and there was one case I had where the mediator was kind of getting frustrated on a case.

[00:37:49] He wasn't really getting it done for us, and he said, um, he said, okay. He pulled me aside. He goes, what do you think I should do? He's like, gimme some tips here of like, what I can do. And so I just kind of controlled the rest of the, the mediation. And it was the, the client on the other side, the opposing attorney and their client followed my stuff.

[00:38:09] And so it just is a different layer of Right.

[00:38:12] Nathan: Of credibility, you know, to it this moment where you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, sure. Let's get up. I'll, I'll sit there. You sit here and let's just Exactly. Let's just lay it out. It'll be nice and fair for everyone. Exactly.

[00:38:21] Jefferson: Or the opposing, uh, party wants a picture.

[00:38:24] Yeah. You know, that, that, that's, uh, that's fun. So I was like, yeah, of course I will. Yeah, it is. Um, it's just a different, just a different world that I never, uh, saw coming. And I, I, I know what I'm saying is all a position of, of privilege in a sense. Mm-hmm. That there are creators and people that I know that work tirelessly and they focus all about their content and they have so much money tied into teams of their content and making sure everything is perfect and they're still not growing as much as they want or businesses.

[00:38:56] And here I am, just. Going by the seat of my pants, just shooting from the hip, doing Jefferson things in my car with my phone. And, um, it's, I I would say to those people that you're really just not that far off. It's just the being as authentic as you can. Hmm. You can be. I feel like that's a fear a lot of people have is, is being, being real.

[00:39:23] Nathan: Yeah. Or not being who they are on camera, as they are off camera. And so you're trying to bring that through as much as possible.

[00:39:30] Jefferson: Yeah. Yeah. As long as you're the same person on and off that you're, it's nothing but a, a benefit to you. So it's, it's like this idea of, um, you almost have to not want it to get it in a, in a sense.

[00:39:43] Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. I always we're, uh, big Harry Potter fans. I compare it to the sorcerer stone. Right. Like, you have to like, not want it to get this, get it in the mirror. Yep. Uh, and so it's, it's like that where I, I never wanted mm-hmm. I didn't start social media to get a whole bunch of followers.

[00:40:00] I never did this to start helping everything else in my, in my world or write a book. It's just, it's how it came about.

[00:40:07] Nathan: I wanted dive into the book and all that in a second, but like, in a given week, how much time do you think you spend creating content?

[00:40:14] Jefferson: About 40 minutes a day.

[00:40:16] Nathan: Okay.

[00:40:17] Jefferson: Probably. Um, and here, with the book and everything, I, it changes, it changes.

[00:40:23] Like my, my, I've definitely have kind of shifted my mentality. There was a time where I wanted, I posted every single day. Mm-hmm. And that included Saturdays and Sundays, but I was making that video that day. Okay. So you, yeah. I wasn't batching anything. And um, you know, and now with the, that side of the business expanding when you have.

[00:40:47] A lot of followers. It's like, okay, well if I don't post and they leave, if they don't follow me, okay. Like, you know, you just go, well then they weren't gonna follow you that long to begin with. Right. So it's, it's, uh, it's, you just kind of have this less of a sense of urgency. I feel like that's, uh, what I see a lot of the shift or they have teams that do it for them.

[00:41:08] Nathan: Right. Do you think that the regular posting schedule and the really consistent format Yeah. Of are mandatory?

[00:41:15] Jefferson: Yes. Consistent in the what you give. Mm-hmm. So if you looked at mine, it's just nothing but me and my car. Yep. Exact same, exact same kind of captions. Title 1, 2, 3, like that consistency and I'm consistent of when I post it.

[00:41:31] Mm-hmm. Which is like 4:30 PM not just outta necessity. Right. Um, clearly

[00:41:37] Nathan: you haven't analyzed it to be like, this is the perfect time. Four 30 central. Exactly. Yeah. You're just like, no, this is.

[00:41:44] Jefferson: Instagram says that my best time on a given weekday is like more on noon. Okay. I've never posted, I think at noon I've always posted at the, the four 30.

[00:41:54] So, um, yeah, that's just kind of how that's, that's worked for me.

[00:41:59] Nathan: Is there, I'm thinking about content that I would put out of, you know, advice for creators or, or that sort of thing, whether to do much more of probably what would come more naturally to me. Mm-hmm. Which would be like clips from a podcast or random things maybe that I'd be teaching or me in front of my, the kit team or, or that kind of thing.

[00:42:20] Jefferson: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:21] Nathan: Uh, and it feels pretty different for my style, but I could see it working to like, follow a format like that and, and say, mm-hmm here are these three things because I talk to creators all the time. Right. And so with that target audience, you know, in the same way of you going through your day.

[00:42:37] Right. And, and encountering a difficult person or whatever, and you're like, oh, well here's what I can teach that

[00:42:42] Jefferson: if you're a creator and you're looking to increase your following, there's three things that you can do. And I'm, I'm the witness to that. Number one is you want to reduce the amount of fluff at the beginning.

[00:42:53] Not this, I get this question all the time, or, so I've been thinking of this content, or I've thought about this the other day. Eliminate that. You're wasting time doing that. Two, make your clips much shorter. That makes 'em digestible. So you're not thinking of words to add. You're thinking of words to minimize.

[00:43:10] And three, be the exact same person onscreen as you are offscreen. 'cause people can know the difference. And you, you're best to set yourself up now for being a real human than trying to pretend that you're not. And then people realizing that you're fake. I love it. Yeah.

[00:43:26] Nathan: So, and then, uh, so try that and follow me Exactly.

[00:43:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah. With the hand and everything. Exactly. Yeah. The way that you did it. Yeah. I, I think there's so much stuff there. Let's talk about the book. So how that whole thing. Yeah, that whole thing. Uh, how long has the book been out now?

[00:43:42] Jefferson: mid-March, so almost, almost a month.

[00:43:44] Nathan: So about a month. Mm-hmm. And then how many copies has it sold?

[00:43:46] How's the launch gone?

[00:43:48] Jefferson: I think we're close to 200,000. Wow. Yeah. Uh oh. Yeah. For a newbie. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I'm, yeah. It's gone incredibly well. So we did, uh, 10 cities. We sold out every one. Mm-hmm. Book signings take a lot more work than you think. Like it was, it was so, it was wonderful. I loved it. I got to meet so many people.

[00:44:07] And, um, that, that has probably been my favorite thing. Probably one of my favorite things I've done since I ever started being in person with everyone who's following content. Being impacted. Yeah. Imagine like you were making content here at your home, by yourself in your car.

[00:44:23] Nathan: Right.

[00:44:23] Jefferson: Nobody's around you.

[00:44:24] You are by yourself in your car. The most intimate alone private space you probably have. You got kids? Yeah. All right. Your car is like your quietest place. Yeah. And then you go to a place you've never been for me, like LA or Chicago or North Carolina, South Carolina, it doesn't matter. And it's sold out of people that are there to meet you.

[00:44:49] 400, 500 people that are just lining up and waiting two hours just to say the nicest, most humbling things you've ever thought of. And they want you to sign stuff and you go, I'm, where did all of you come from? Like, what are all you doing here? I did this by, I, I made this by myself. So it's such a cool, such a cool feeling.

[00:45:09] But yeah, it's been out for about a month now and it's done incredibly well. I think we're, um, we'll be four weeks on the New York Times, uh, list. I think we're either five number seven this week coming out.

[00:45:22] Nathan: So yeah, it's consistently hitting. How many copies did you sell in the first week? And like, where did that land you on the New York Times list?

[00:45:30] Jefferson: So, uh, yeah, the first week we did about 65,000 copies. That's insane. And it was nuts. Yeah. And then I landed at number two below Mel Mel Robins. Yeah. Her, which her book is on a different planet, not even different plane, different solar system. Uh, there, there's never been a book, I don't think. Um, like James' book is not even close that Right.

[00:45:56] How early this thing's just been taken off. And so any other week I would've had a, a number one. Right. Cool. Great.

[00:46:06] Nathan: I mean, so to get on the list is probably in an average week, 10,000 copies. Yeah. And to top out the list, you, before Mel showed up, probably 30,000 copies, something like that.

[00:46:18] Jefferson: Yeah, that's what they said.

[00:46:19] So anyway, from like 30 to 40. You have a, any other non mill Robins time, you're gonna, you're gonna hit number one there. Number four, Mel, and Act Mel. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Uh, yeah. Um, I think

[00:46:31] Nathan: Sawhill, uh, with his book, the Five Types of Wealth, ran into the same thing of like, oh yeah. Came out absolutely crushed it and all that, and was like, cool.

[00:46:37] And you did, you know, two thirds of mill. Good job. Exactly.

[00:46:41] Jefferson: Yeah. And so it, it became whoever was number three, like we had a big, huge discrepancy to two, and then Mel's still on the top. Yeah. She's just killing it. And so happy for her. I mean, she's, uh, a book, her that theory is just, uh, incredible. It resonates for a reason.

[00:46:58] Nathan: When we were chatting over lunch Yeah. About how that book came together. Yeah. Of, and it's based on a viral video that she had. Is that right?

[00:47:06] Jefferson: On males? Yeah.

[00:47:07] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:47:07] Jefferson: Yeah. So she first did a, a video on, um, a, a theory called the Leadman Theory that she came across and it just went viral. People couldn't get enough of it.

[00:47:18] And it's just a quick, easy. Mindset. Mm-hmm. And, uh, it's super powerful. And so the book has had, I, I truly think it's changed the game in all things publishing. I don't know of any other self-help book that has skyrocketed like that book. Um, yeah, it's been incre and it's been really, really cool to see for, uh, as a, as she's a personal friend.

[00:47:40] Yeah, it's been really, really, uh, cool to see with her. And then, uh, of course Mel was the first one to call me and tell me congratulations and just be so, so happy for me to even be on the list, man. Mm-hmm. You talk, you talking about my first book, um, from my car, all this, like how this has all came about and I can't, I can't be any, any happier.

[00:48:01] So yeah, the book's done incredibly well. Uh, and I've done with all the not done. I'm still on the promotion. I'm gonna be promoting it probably forever. But yeah, it's been a lot of fun.

[00:48:14] Nathan: So. Uh, James, Claire and I were talking the other day. Mm-hmm. We were talking about you. Yeah. And James studies book launches.

[00:48:20] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:48:20] Nathan: Meticulously. Uh, and who does that, by the way? Who studies that? That's crazy. I mean, James is the most obsessed person in publishing I've ever met. That's cool. We were sitting down and, uh, talking through an idea that I'm working on for a book and all that, and he's like, oh, I wrote about this a little bit in my Google Doc.

[00:48:37] Let me find it. So he pulls up the laptop and he's going through it and he's scrolling and scrolling and scrolling. He is not finding the section that he's talking about. I'm like, James, how long is this Google doc? And, 'cause I happen to see these on page 200 of 500. And I'm like, what is this? What is his word?

[00:48:53] Count? And it's like, and he, you know, setting tools, word count, it's like 225,000 words. And it is what he has written over the last five years of everything he knows about publishing. And it's just insane where like, he's, he's that obsessed. Just, just anything about publishing, about publishing bestselling books.

[00:49:13] Like if you want to, uh, write a book that sells a million copies, this is, as he has studied it for years, this is everything he knows Good for him. And, uh, so he's, you know, as he has author's equity, he's publishing books himself. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, getting into all of that, but we were talking about your launch.

[00:49:29] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:49:30] Nathan: And he was been, you know, he is been watching it from a distance and he was saying like, there's a lot of things that are really interesting and done really well from that. Oh, cool. And so I'm curious, like, what are a couple of things that, uh, you know, that you did in launch that you're like, all right, I would definitely do that again.

[00:49:46] Mm-hmm. Or recommend that another author, author do.

[00:49:49] Jefferson: I'll say it like this, this is my first time ever doing any of it. So if it went well, it was by chance, you know, I, I, one is, I did the, the long term work of building an audience a hundred percent. And I don't think that can be. Overstated of giving value for free without asking a thing for them.

[00:50:10] Mm-hmm. So the book was the very first thing I ever asked them, my audience to buy phy, like purchase, first time I'm ever asking 'em to open up their wallet and get something. And so that was two and a half years of me just daily free content to where at that point they're just itching to buy something.

[00:50:28] Whether it's just to say thank you, whether it's, I mean my book could have been trash and they still would've probably bought it because of the time and value that I'm giving to them. Mm-hmm. So putting in that work instead of just immediately I see this with even newer, smaller creators, that they're all about buy this, buy that, click here for 30% off my whatever.

[00:50:51] I get it. I just would rather, you're going to build a longer, stronger, more loyal audience if you're not asking for anything. Mm-hmm. I think that's kind of Gary v's. Like. Jab, jab hook kind of thing, right? You just give value, give value, give value, then you ask. Mm-hmm. And I never thought about it that way until now.

[00:51:08] Really on the opposite side of this, uh, two would be, I paced when I talked about the book. So I had, the publisher wanted me to talk about the book, you know, back in like October, September, something in there. That's when I first said, Hey, my book's coming out, it's coming out in March. So I had this huge rise, and then I stopped talking about it and I paced it out until the end of the year.

[00:51:34] So when people are thinking about the holidays, they're in a mm-hmm. More spending behavior. Um, it's not, it wasn't me thinking of like spinning behavior as if I'm like some kind of economist. It was just me, like, Hey, I think people will be Yeah. More receptive to wanting a book now. The vibes of the season.

[00:51:49] Yeah, exactly. And, and then I waited and so I had another like big rise, and so I waited and then until you're about a month out from. The the push. Mm-hmm. And that's when I told my audience, like I had a video that said, I'm just gonna tell you right now, I have a book coming out in about a month. That means I'm gonna be talking about the book a lot.

[00:52:12] And so if you, you know, that annoys you, that's cool. Just swipe. Don't worry about it. The note, this is what I'm doing and this is why I'm doing it and I'm doing it. 'cause I know it's really gonna help a lot of people. Mm-hmm. I had more people buy my book from that video than from my earlier announcing because it was just me being real with them of, Hey, you're gonna see me promoting my book.

[00:52:36] If you don't like that, don't worry about it. It's like, hurt my feelings. Just scroll it. Like, and that right there was them going. I had so many message messages from them saying, I'm buying this book because of that video. Mm. Like I've never had anybody be that honest with me in promoting the video. And I would tell them like, I feel kind of weird promoting a book.

[00:52:55] It's my first time ever promoting anything. It feels like I'm talking about myself a lot. And I had nothing, but just people saying Absolutely promote it. We can't get enough of it sent, you know, make more videos on it. So those are the people that were my big, big supporters of the book and pushed early on.

[00:53:09] Yeah. So I would say that the be real strategic with the, the timing that people who always talk about the book, book, book, book, book.

[00:53:17] Nathan: Yeah. That makes sense. Is there, were there any mistakes that you made or things you're like, okay, that was a waste of time? I wouldn't do that again.

[00:53:22] Jefferson: If, if you wanna be really technical about it, there might have been some podcasts that weren't Yeah.

[00:53:27] Gonna push any books. But they were great conversations and nice people and I was happy to, happy to meet them. Um, sorry. I would never say it was a waste of time, but just there was certain, there's gonna be certain opportunities that push the book. Mm-hmm. And don't push the book. Um, I was also in a very fortunate position that.

[00:53:45] My episode with Mel, who has a huge pop podcast platform, went really well. Mm-hmm. Uh, I think it was one of her top podcasts for last year and came out like in November. So it was perfect timing with the book. Mm-hmm. And we talked about my book and she's fantastic. And then I had Diary of a CEO with Steven Bartlett.

[00:54:04] Right. He also talked about my book, and that was my, that came out, um, release day, launch day of my book. And that went viral. And so little things like that I think, of how to replicate that, I don't know. But those are the things I think that, that really moved the, the needle for me in terms of mistakes. I, I think it was, it was really just more of a, um, not, not knowing what to expect.

[00:54:31] I had never done this before, and so having a a, a great team to help was, um, it was just, it was fantastic. Uh, I was really happy with my team.

[00:54:42] Nathan: Yeah. That's awesome. So on your podcast, you take a very casual approach, but it, it, it totally fits your brand.

[00:54:48] Jefferson: Yeah. Well, thank you. It's a very casual approach. I like how you said it.

[00:54:52] Um, yeah. I, you know, I had no idea how to do a podcast like most people, and I felt it even more of, no, I need to wait. I need to wait for my podcast until I have an amazing studio. Right. Or I have, you know, a full team, or I need to do X, Y, and Z. And I thought, what am I doing? Just do the same thing you've been doing, man.

[00:55:15] Just make it a little bit longer. And so I got, this was starting last year, maybe last July. Okay. And I got, uh, off Amazon, one of those like suction cups that you can put on your, your windshield. I got two of them, one on one side, one on the other, like one on my window and one on the windshield. And I got a, another extra old iPhone.

[00:55:40] Nathan: I like that it's an old iPhone. Yeah. Not even a, a brand new one.

[00:55:43] Jefferson: And then, um, and then I got like a lav mic that would plug into the phone. And so I thought, well, what if I just make, do the videos? I do, but just talk about them a little bit longer and start with the 15 minute podcast. Mm-hmm. So take my three points and then talk about each of 'em for five minutes, and then you time tell a story or two and then Exactly.

[00:56:06] And so that's what I did. I grabbed my phone, used a laugh mic in my car, and then begin the podcast episode like that, and then just talk about my points, not have this whole big thing. And then at the end I would take a, a question from somebody who emailed me or or dmd me. And I would say, you know, Nathan up in Boise, Idaho, I had this question.

[00:56:30] And I'd say, Nathan, great question, man. Let me tell you how I would handle that. And then I went and it was 15 minutes and it went through the roof because it was, everybody listened to all of it and it was just natural. And it wasn't super highly professionalized. I don't know if that's the right word. I don't know.

[00:56:49] Words highly produced. There we go. And, um, it just, and it worked. And so I, that's how I started in the podcast, just figuring out mistakes. Mm-hmm. And the music I have in the background is me and my best friend. So he has a music studio and we wrote my little, um, podcast, what we call theme song. Yeah. Theme song.

[00:57:11] And so I'm on the drums, he's on guitar or whatever, and is, and so that brings me a lot of joy. So that was just a way of just being proud of something that I'm creating and putting out into the world. And I then at the end of December, I stopped and took like a two month break. And during that time I had made a studio out in the back of my, uh, we have a big metal building.

[00:57:34] Okay. And I made a little corner of it for a studio, and that's where I record some stuff now. And it's still just 15 minutes. I do have a few guests on, I had, um, Mel on, I had Chris Foss Fosson, um, Charles Duhig Great people. And yeah, I just built out that studio. It was just the biggest thing with podcasts was just do it.

[00:57:56] Now. I, I read somewhere and I, I screenshot it and it was, it's this concept of make it exist, make it perfect later. Okay. It's like, just get it to exist and then you can make it perfect later. And that, that's kind of been my whole thing with podcasting.

[00:58:14] Nathan: I mean, that's really the approach that you've taken with all of your content where you're saying, I'm going to make it exist.

[00:58:20] Yeah. Right. Even the first videos in the car. And then you continue to refine it and yeah, it's gone really well.

[00:58:26] Jefferson: Yeah. Um, I think it, it goes well because of its value that you're giving. Mm-hmm. Uh, I'm trying to be authentic as I can. So I mean, you, as you know, I'm not, I'm not like a different personality off camera where I'm like, whew, thank goodness I've gotta talk to those terrible humans anymore.

[00:58:44] Like there's, it's just the same guy and, um, trying to, uh, have fun with it. Yeah. I, people feel like you can't include the mistakes in the podcasts or whenever you're recording. That's what people want. That's what people listen for. So I have clips that are 12 minutes of a podcast episode, and they go really, really well.

[00:59:05] And then there's ones that I just started doing 45 minutes, or then I'll have somebody who comments to say, go back to the car. Like, you just, you never, you never know. You got the whole range of things, Uhhuh.

[00:59:16] Nathan: I mean, you have so much impact with your content, like even, uh, reading your book. There's so many things where I'm like, oh, I know how to apply this or, or that sort of thing.

[00:59:27] I want two things as we wrap up. The first one that I just wanna hear about, uh, another time for you where, like a door opened or something like that because of your content. Mm-hmm. And then after that we'll get into a time that like your content has had an impact on someone that really matters to you.

[00:59:43] Jefferson: You know, I've had it to where, because of the content that I put out, I've had an influence on names that I have to keep confidential, who have consulted me for conversations. Hmm. Difficult conversations that they have. People that I would never expect in a million years are asking me for. Advice, but it just goes to show a lot of people have problems with communication.

[01:00:09] I'm just gonna assume

[01:00:10] Nathan: that this is

[01:00:10] like former

[01:00:11] presidents, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you can don't have to confirm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, fortune 500 CEOs, all big name people. Yeah.

[01:00:20] Jefferson: And, um, it's, it's, it's wild. I'll talk to you about that. Off. Yeah. Off, off air. Um, but that's, that just goes to show you it would've never mm-hmm.

[01:00:31] It would've never happened had I just got in my car and decided to be okay with embarrassing myself for a little bit. Right. Like, that's as simple as it is. Like you, uh, I feel that, I'll say this, where new creators go wrong is they can't get over the fear of that first video because they're afraid it's gonna be bad.

[01:00:53] Newsflash, it is guaranteed to be bad. It is guaranteed to be cringe or terrible. And that's the point. Anybody who's ever been in social media, their first videos are terrible. Like we said to YouTube creators, their very first things are terrible and they're meant to be so, and you have to get over the hump of being okay with that until you figure it out and start doing better.

[01:01:20] That's, that's the only way you're going to, to do it. So really, it's like when I first started making videos, my cringe videos of figuring out how Google, how Googling, how reels worked. When I'm pushed something out, I posted it for the first time. I remember like my heart, I just, because I put something out into the internet, what's it gonna do?

[01:01:41] What's gonna happen? And it's hard getting over that hump of people you actually know. Mm-hmm. Like it was much harder for me to post a video to 800 friends. Did I all know by name than it is for me to do it in front of now? A whole bunch of strangers and people that I'll, I'll never, I'll never meet. So that's the hump that they have to find a way to, to get over.

[01:02:03] Nathan: I love that. Okay. What's a time that, or a story that you've heard back of your content impacting someone and like making a huge difference in their life?

[01:02:11] Jefferson: Oh, there's, uh, one that I love, um, love, love, love it. And it was, uh, a guy who lives in Texas and he said, Hey, you know, I don't really do social media and I've never DMD anybody, never messaged anybody before.

[01:02:29] You're probably never gonna get this. And he said, I, I work for the state helping with parents that are kind of in the foster care system of trying to, I. Um, people that are also getting divorced, how do you take care of the kids that are involved in these divorces? And he said, because of your techniques in handling conversations, I was able to get these parents to calm down and agree on something that's going to significantly make the kids' lives much better.

[01:03:06] Mm-hmm. He says, so just know that was because of your tips. And that always just hit me so hard because I'll never meet those kids. Yeah. You know, the kids will never know me and because of some tip I gave in my car, probably when I was tired, you know, of making this video. Mm-hmm. It, it change, it can change, could change the trajectory of this kid's life.

[01:03:32] I had, um, one that, uh, dad sent me yesterday. I put it up on my stories right now. Can I get it out? Yeah.

[01:03:41] Nathan: Oh yeah.

[01:03:41] Jefferson: It meant, meant so, so much to me. And I, I get these kind of things all the time and they always start with, you're probably never gonna see those. Yeah, those are the ones that I read. Uh, because those, those are the ones I find to be just so special because it's probably the first time they've ever reached out to somebody.

[01:03:58] This is my, this is one of my favorite ones. This was yesterday. Hey Jefferson, I'm sure you get tons of messages. So n no need to reply. I just wanted to take a minute and let you know that I shared your advice with my 8-year-old daughter. A girl was repeatedly giving her a hard time, and we discussed what she could do in those situations.

[01:04:17] She wanted to say nothing but didn't like that. After a week, we settled on that. Didn't feel kind. Did you mean that to be hurtful? It worked like a charm after she used it just once. Best part, it felt like a true and honest statement to my daughter. Thank you for all you do. Like. What greater success could I ever hope for in life?

[01:04:40] Right. Than something like that. Like how's, just like,

[01:04:43] Nathan: you just imagine that scenario of my kids are 13, 10, and five.

[01:04:48] Jefferson: Yeah.

[01:04:48] Nathan: And so I see the interactions or hear about the interactions they have at school or all of that, and they just, they don't know how to deal with it. And, and you think like, okay, if I ignore it, it'll go away.

[01:04:59] Right. Right. All that. Or, or they end up in a place where they're lashing out in some way. Yeah. And to just give that tool Yeah. To say that didn't feel kind.

[01:05:07] Jefferson: Right. Did you mean for it to be hurtful? Yeah. Just that right there. Yeah. And it's like, I can't, um, what, what greater thing could you ever ask for? I just, it's incredibly humbling and, um, it's, it's, it's hard for me to know what to do with that feeling.

[01:05:23] Right. Other than just being incredibly grateful. Yeah. And so proud of that, that little girl. And all the, the little, all the kids that are able to use, uh. The power of their voice. Mm-hmm. To make a difference in their life. And for me to be able to be a small part of that is, uh, something that I'll, I wanna do for the rest of my life.

[01:05:44] That's amazing.

[01:05:46] Nathan: Well, this has been an amazing conversation. It's been great. We're actually gonna do a part two where we dive into like you creator business where it could go. We'll get up on the board and I'm excited and do that. Uh, but where should people go to follow you? To listen to the podcast and join the newsletter?

[01:06:01] Jefferson: Yeah, they can, uh, you go on social media, type in Jefferson, Jefferson Fisher. I'll be there. Instagram is my favorite app. Yep. And um, you can go to jefferson fisher.com and you can also find my book, the next conversation, wherever you like to buy a book. I love it. I just finished reading the book. Thanks, man.

[01:06:18] Nathan: It's fantastic. Thanks, dude. Uh, I. I've already like found sections, highlighted them. Uh, I'm, I'm trying to get my 13-year-old to read it because I think that he would really benefit from it, so. Oh, cool. That'd be awesome. That I'm honored, man. We, uh, we'll, we'll see how that goes. Yeah. There's certain things where I'm like, oh, this is the thing.

[01:06:36] Jefferson: Yeah. Yeah.

[01:06:36] Nathan: We'll start with a section or two. Yeah. Uh, go from there. But yeah, thank you so much for coming out and

[01:06:41] Jefferson: yeah, brother,

[01:06:42] Nathan: it's great to record

[01:06:42] Jefferson: you too, man.

[01:06:43] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search the Nathan Berry Show. Then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[01:06:52] I'd love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else do you think we should have on the show? Thank you so much for listening.