The Nathan Barry Show

Nathan Barry: [00:00:00] Today on the podcast, we switch things up a little bit. My guest is Darrell Vesterfelt, who's one of the best marketers I know, and he coaches me on my new launch for the Creator Flywheels course.

Darrell Vesterfelt: A lot of times people are afraid of selling because they don't want to be inauthentic. Right. If you start having the anxiety monster come up during this stage, we got to keep workshopping this until it's believable.

Right. And it's true.

Nathan Barry: I'm really excited for you to watch not only what I went through here, But also how you can apply it in your own launch.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Don't punch me when I ask this question. The next one, I see this mistake all the time. Here's what it is. It's this many lessons and this feature and that feature in one line, like what is the transformation that's going to happen?

Nathan Barry: That's the hard part. This is what we use chat GPT for. This is exactly right. We get into the marketing, packaging, the positioning, the launch sequence, all of the tactics. For launching a high ticket course,

Darrell Vesterfelt: this is a secret point. Like a lot of times people skip this part of the process. Nathan, this is the kind of stuff that is really important for sales and growth to feel automatic is making it.[00:01:00]

Nathan Barry: Darrell, welcome to the show.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Good to be here.

Nathan Barry: So you and I have talked a bunch over the years. You were on the on the show a year ago or so as we talk summits. Uh, and you just know the creator business inside and out. We're going to do two things. First, I want to get some quick context on your business, the experience you have, and then I want to put things around.

Like I've got you here in the studio, you know, launches better than pretty much anyone else I know in the creator space. I have a launch coming up and I just want to get on the board and workshop it. I love it. Okay. So quick context. You worked at ConvertKit, now Kit, uh, starting in 2016, 2016. So you joined when we were right about a million ARR.

Stayed on the team for 15 months. And in that time we went to 7 million ARR, 8 million, somewhere right in there. Like just an absolute wild ride. Yeah. Pure chaos.

Darrell Vesterfelt: The reason I think you invited me to be the head of growth is because I knew the, at the time, professional blogger world very well. Yeah. [00:02:00] worked with some high profile clients, creating courses, helping them launch it, growing their email list, et cetera.

So this kind of topic of conversation is something I've been doing for 15 years or so. This is like the world that I live and breathe now. I have a, uh, an agency that works with top level creators to build monetization strategies and do launches. I have some of my own companies around this as well. Um, and so launching products inside of the creator world to an audience is something I know well.

Yeah. And so

Nathan Barry: you've built, uh, multiple businesses to two to 3 million a year in revenue in the creator space just in the last couple of years. Correct. Oh, what a lot of people would use on their resume, you know, like over the last 20 years, I built this business to 2 million, this business to three, you're like 20, 20 years, no 20 months.

I've done that in 24 months or so. Yeah. Yeah. It's wild. So they grow. And then just even in the. Uh, like the hey creator community, you've got a lot of creators who are learning from you and Matt and others, and you just get to see behind the scenes on what's [00:03:00] working on all these launches and you're coaching and developing creators and all that.

So that's the context. And what I want to dive into today is I have a launch coming up. I have not launched a product, a new product in

Darrell Vesterfelt: 10 years. I think so. 2014 was that authority?

Nathan Barry: Yeah. Yeah. So we're at, we're at 10 and a half years now since I've launched a product. I'm diving back into it with this creator flywheels course and group coaching.

It's a topic that I love. I talk about all the time. I teach it in masterminds and people are like, you have got to make. like the definitive content on this. So, uh, last week I sat down in the studio, I've been developing it for like a year and a half of different versions, cohorts, all of that. And then last week I sat down in the studio and recorded the final version of it.

So we're basically ready to go. There's just a handful of things in the

Darrell Vesterfelt: launch that we've got to figure out. This is like maybe the most important part of the process is I have made the mistake before of Building an incredible product and [00:04:00] not having a tactical launch plan and not seeing the results that my product deserved.

And so I'm excited to talk about getting this, the launch that this product deserves. Cool. We'll jump up on

Nathan Barry: the board and start to map it out. Cool. Okay, so it's creatorflywheels. com and what it is, is a course and group coaching program where I'm taking, it could be any business, but we're really focused on creators into how to build these flywheels in their business and take things that are hard and complicated and you're doing one off, you're doing the hand pump version of it and we want to implement the flywheels.

So I've got 15 lessons or so, another 15, you know, lessons. Like case study examples, like you can, here's a flywheel copy, copy and paste in your business, got the spreadsheets and trainings. Uh, and then twice a month we'll do a group coaching where, uh, we'll take flywheels that students are working on workshop them live.

You know, figure out, okay, how would you measure this? How would you improve it? Uh, and then we also have a like flywheels [00:05:00] concierge service where students in the community can submit their flywheel and then, uh, our team will See how to improve it and workshop from there. So that's the offering as a whole

Darrell Vesterfelt: cool So the first step I want to do here is I want to get into the narrow ideal customer

Okay,

Darrell Vesterfelt: this is something that you and I actually are super passionate about based on our success that convert kit

Yep,

Darrell Vesterfelt: early days is it was professional bloggers back then who is the specific person that needs to be taking this course?

Okay, and I see this mistake all the time. Nathan is exactly what just happened happens all the time. Here's what it is. It's this many lessons and this feature on that feature. It's like time out. Let's let's fly a little bit higher. Let's make sure that we're really dialed in on who it's for. And the second thing we're gonna talk about is the transformation that person experiences.

So who's the ideal customer here?

Nathan Barry: Okay, so the ideal customer is someone making we'll say 250, 000 a year as a creator and they are selling their own products. Yep. They [00:06:00] probably have one team, one or two team member, freelancer, that sort of thing, a small team. And they're probably overwhelmed in some way.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Cool. Let's talk about that overwhelm a little bit. How is that overwhelm manifesting? And then what is the problems that it's potentially causing? Yeah, let me write this out really quick. Yep. So, creator, professional creator, 250k.

Nathan Barry: Yep.

One to two team members. And I'll just say overwhelmed.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Overwhelmed. So the next portion of this is what I call the core problem. So this ideal person, what is the core problem that overwhelm, how is that manifesting in their business and their life? What is that looking like? Uh, what is their core problem here?

Nathan Barry: Yeah, so I think they've always had a direct connection between effort and impact. And, That's worked up until this point. They can put in a whole bunch of time and build their audience and then that results in an impact of a whole [00:07:00] bunch of sales or new subscribers.

Darrell Vesterfelt: I already know this is going because I know 10 people who are who are like this.

And so now The amount of effort that they put is not getting the kind of movement that it used to get anymore. And so they've hit the ceiling of the effort that they've put into their business having a direct result back. I think this is a perfect place. I think you and I could list like five or six people who we know personally where this is the case.

I'm trying super hard, but I'm not getting the results I get to, I get to anymore. This could manifest probably in I'm making the same amount of money two, three, four years in a row. Right. I'm trying some different things and it's not working in the same way. Or I'm doing the same stuff and I'm getting diminishing returns from those efforts.

Yeah. If it was flat. Um. Question I have for you here. Is this something you've experienced personally?

Nathan Barry: Oh, yeah,

Darrell Vesterfelt: absolutely where we're in your life Can you point to a couple of points in your life that you could say I was experiencing at this in this particular way

Nathan Barry: Yeah, so I've experienced it at [00:08:00] kit where a particular channel has stalled out or actually the one that I've experienced the most at kit is When you stop focusing on something, someone described it once as like the eye of Sauron in Lord of the Rings, where it's like, whatever it's looking at, you know, wherever your attention goes, that goes really well.

And then it moves over here. And then as long as you're pumping

Darrell Vesterfelt: the flywheel, it's working, but as soon as you take your hand off, it's not working anymore. Exactly. Cool. That makes sense to me. So this is what's, what's key about this is I think the best. Copy and positioning comes from empathy, and so if you have the ability to tap into a moment in time where it's like, I've actually experienced this before, that's where the super charge in positioning comes here.

So

Nathan Barry: one example of that is in one year I built my audience on X. From 30,000 followers to a hundred thousand followers. Mm-Hmm. . And it was this big push. I put a lot of effort into it and Yep. And we figured out what worked. We built systems for that. And then if you looked at that trend line, [00:09:00] you would've assumed that the next year we'd go from a hundred thousand to 200,000.

And instead I went from a hundred thousand to 120,000. Yep. And so. They just completely tape it off.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Good. This is becoming really clear to me, right? So now we know the ideal customer. We know the core problem here. You've experienced this core problem,

Nathan Barry: right?

Darrell Vesterfelt: Now, what is the transformation that this flywheels concept is going to give somebody who has experienced this core problem?

Nathan Barry: Yeah. So what it's going to give is consistent results over a long period of time. Great. And the systems and structure that you were a team member. Can can keep this running and it's going to give you a disconnect Between effort and impact great So say that

Darrell Vesterfelt: in one sentence for me.

Nathan Barry: Oh, that's the hard part This is what we use chat gpd for exactly right.

It's actually good. It's actually a good tool for this It is where it's like, all right, here's all of this and distill it down We'll have to pretend like it's 2021

Darrell Vesterfelt: exactly [00:10:00] Old school old school let's use our brains here You So, are

Nathan Barry: you thinking going into the, getting the pain point

Darrell Vesterfelt: in there? So the transformation, I think you did a good job of saying it, but it was like, I started checking out halfway through, right?

So in one line, like, what is the transformation that's going to happen? Key phrases that you said were consistent results.

Nathan Barry: Yeah. Do you think the effort versus impact line resonates? I think that's good. I think that's good. Or is that? Okay. So I'm thinking about like how to, how to disconnect effort from impact to get compounding results.

Yeah. How to disconnect effort and impact to drive compound growth.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Great. This is okay. It's messy right now, but that's, we're making progress towards this, right? So we're going to say, uh, compounding impact for the effort in my business. And so that's, again, still a little bit messy. We can refine this a little bit later, but I think that's a good starting step.

Okay.

Darrell Vesterfelt: The next question I have is like, so that what? So that what happens? So I'm going to get compounding effect in my [00:11:00] business, so that what? So what we talked about is we talked about an external thing that's going to happen. And now we're getting into kind of the internal piece of it. So that what happens in my business?

I would describe it as this like feeling

Nathan Barry: of settling. Yeah. Of like, Oh, my time is freeing up. My calendar is freeing up. My anxiety is decreasing. So that I can grow the business without. burning out. Yeah,

Darrell Vesterfelt: great. I mean, this is good. Also, by the way, I'm okay that this is a little bit awkward. This is taking time.

Like, this is a wrestling process that I think is really important because intuitively, you know exactly why you've created this course. Right. But we have to articulate it. What we're doing is we're wrestling with the positioning, which I think is Uh, a very, very important part of this. So, I think it's okay that this is a little bit of a struggle, that we're kind of workshopping some of these phrases a bit.

Um, and so, positioning here, exactly right. So that I maybe can avoid burnout.

So

Darrell Vesterfelt: that maybe I can, Like my business again, so that I can feel like it's [00:12:00] a path to freedom, not another job that I just don't like. Some of these phrases, you know, are kind of what I'm hearing you

Nathan Barry: say. One phrase, I was talking to someone at the event we were both at in Atlanta.

And we talked about, we came up with the line, like, uh, like this used to be fun, you know, and talking about that aspect of it. And I can't remember if they're using that for one of their products, so I don't

Darrell Vesterfelt: remember. So this is a good callback to ConvertKit. Remember, this is what we did kind of unintentionally, is Seth Spears was a friend of ours one day was like we were workshopping this we were kind of wrestling through what ConvertKit is and he said it's the power of MailChimp or it's the power of Infusionsoft with the simplicity of

Nathan Barry: MailChimp.

Darrell Vesterfelt: It's like that was a thing that we held on to for years actually. We

Nathan Barry: sold millions of dollars. So this process

Darrell Vesterfelt: is what we're trying to get to, right? We're trying to get to a thing where it's like that easy to communicate with this course and practice. Let me go back

Nathan Barry: to the positive side and make sure I get something written down here.

What was the Calm, stress free. [00:13:00] Yeah, so that's in the, of what we're delivering. I'm just thinking about, um, how, how we positioned the effort versus impact. It was like, was it disconnect? Effort and impact to get compound growth. Yeah,

Darrell Vesterfelt: compounding results by disconnecting effort from impact. Again, I think that's still clunky language, but again, we're moving in the right direction.

And I think this is a, this is a secret point. Like, a lot of times people skip this part of the process, Nathan, and I think This is the kind of stuff that is really important for sales and growth to feel automatic is making it really easy for people to understand. I think that's what we had the magic of kit early on was that we had that simplicity and the positioning done really, really well.

Okay, so I'm gonna do this again. We're going to avoid stress and burnout. We're going to experience calm, lower stress so that what?

Nathan Barry: Let's see, so that you can grow the business I mean, removing yourself as a [00:14:00] bottleneck, uh, that's probably a line that people hear is like, Oh, you're the bottleneck in this.

Darrell Vesterfelt: So I want to avoid burnout. So that what, so why, why do I want to avoid burnout in my business? So I can

Nathan Barry: do this for a long time. Bing compounding results. Yeah. Like we need time. We need longevity. Yeah.

Darrell Vesterfelt: This is great. You're going to notice a trend here. And then don't punch me when I ask this question. The next one, we're going to have longevity in our business.

So that what?

Nathan Barry: Uh, we can build long term wealth, we can love what we're doing,

Darrell Vesterfelt: and we can have the impact. So, wealth, enjoyment, and impact. Great. Let's write that down. And I promise, don't punch me when I ask this next question.

Nathan Barry: I know where this is going.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Why do I want to build wealth? Why do I want to enjoy my job?

And why do I want to make an impact? So that what happens? I

Nathan Barry: mean, for me, so I can reach my full potential so I can achieve what I know I'm capable of. Okay, the, the,

Darrell Vesterfelt: that's what [00:15:00] I call the drop moment. Right. And so I want to keep asking this question so that what, so that what, until we get to this moment where it's like, we actually have a physical reaction to that.

Right. So say that again. So that. I can reach my full potential. So I can, yeah. And here's what's amazing about this, Nathan. Is your story, we've now connected your story 10 years ago. Right? So you talk to me about this a lot, where what was the reason that you doubled down on ConvertKit? Versus going back to your creative business.

Nathan Barry: Right, because I wanted to know Can I build this? I always thought I was capable of it, but I never wanted to have this disconnect and be the person who is saying, I think I could have done that if this had, if this had been different. Yeah.

Darrell Vesterfelt: So that physical reaction, our hair on the back of our neck, sit up on the arms.

It's like, so I can reach my full potential because you've actually experienced that. You've had moments in your life where it's like, wait, I'm trying so hard, but I can't get the results that I know I'm happening. Now all of a sudden we're talking about [00:16:00] the story of this course in a way that it's way more impactful than, Hey, like.

Learn this process so that you can get 10

Nathan Barry: hours a week. Yeah,

Darrell Vesterfelt: that's, that's cool. And that's great, but it's not this transcendent idea that I think is super important. So this right here is actually what we're selling is creator flywheels is not just a process to help you get 10 hours a week back. That is not very valuable.

What it is, it's a process that you can reach your full potential and that positioning is going to change the entire way that this is, this is going to go out.

Nathan Barry: I'm just going to get this bridge in here.

Darrell Vesterfelt: So that, yeah, and then so on down from there. So how does that feel now? Like, it feels like this is a little bit more clear of like what this, what this transformation is going to be.

Nathan Barry: We went from tactical transformations to like identity level. Yeah. Transformations. Yeah.

Darrell Vesterfelt: All right. I like it. Good. So now we've kind of got our ideal customer. So what, what I want to push here [00:17:00] too is like, do you, can you think of a person that is very specific that you want to talk to here? Uh, and maybe it's a younger version of yourself or maybe it's like a specific person that you like really can identify as somebody I'm gonna talk directly to here.

If

Nathan Barry: I go to a younger version of myself, like I was at 250, 000 in revenue. Uh, and then I had this idea. That I could focus on building ConvertKit at the time and Maintain the creator business. Yeah, what actually happened is the moment I stopped pumping it the creator business went down and then you know, it grew grew ConvertKit

Darrell Vesterfelt: So I think this is brilliant.

So I think the businesses that I love the most is that the The ICP here is actually a younger version of yourself, right? Because really what you're able to do is you're able to like all of the messaging of this course Is a love letter to a version of yourself that you can really intimately talk to so that's great That's who we're gonna talk to we're gonna talk about 2014 Nathan yep And like hey if he would have known this flywheel [00:18:00] process there could have potentially been a different impact than he had So now we're super intimate.

We can be really empathetic because all you have to do is close your eyes and remember that time to be able to talk to this person. So I think this is a good kind of positioning point. Now let's talk a little bit about the offer. And so this is the first thing that you started talking about, which I think is actually the second thing that we talked about.

So let's go over here and actually write down the offer that you have here.

Nathan Barry: Okay. So getting into, Which aspects of the offer?

Darrell Vesterfelt: So how are you going to help somebody reach their full potential? Like, so there's training, there's the actual, like the actual education of it.

Nathan Barry: And then, so training, coaching, and then I'm just gonna say resources, the actual templates

Darrell Vesterfelt: that I use, all of that.

And so what are the specific features of the training here?

Nathan Barry: Uh, so they're all videos and they're walking through. A lot of example flywheels in order to unpack [00:19:00] the, the three laws of flywheels, you know, and like demonstrate them in real life. And then there's a lot of, uh, case studies walking through other businesses and how they've done it.

Great. And then what are the features of

Darrell Vesterfelt: the coaching? How will that work?

Nathan Barry: Yeah. So yeah, so live calls having. People in a hot seat where we're then taking their flywheel and workshopping it. Yeah, and then taking questions on that So it'll be a combination of probably first. I'll teach a flywheel that I've come across you know or one that we've created and then take one that's broken and You know from a student or something and workshop it and then take questions and

Darrell Vesterfelt: great I'm all with the resources look like what is the the future of the resources?

Nathan Barry: Yeah, the resources are You The, a lot of example flywheels that you can clone, you know, copy and paste into your business. Um, so making that as much done for you as possible. The templates on like, here's the spreadsheets of, here's how you would actually [00:20:00] measure and track a flywheel. Um, those would be the two main things, more stuff beyond that, but great.

Focus on that.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Okay. So here's the question I'm going to ask that I think you already know where I'm going with this is 2014. Nathan, is this helpful to him? In a way, like what does he think about this as a way to solve the problem that he has?

Nathan Barry: I'm a little split on me as the ideal customer because I was trying to automate something so that I could do something else.

Whereas I think most of people that I'm doing want to do the same thing they're doing, want to do the same thing. But if we set that aside, uh, I would want the plug and play version of it. Right. So the training is important so I can understand it. The coaching, yeah, is important so that. Uh, I can put it in real life practice because I think there's a lot of times that you come across courses or material and it's like, well, yeah, that works there.

But like my situation is unique, correct? And then the resources, I want the plug and play version. I want to be able to flip through the book and be like, [00:21:00] Oh, that one would solve my problem. Like another example of the resources is I have a library of steps that can go into the flywheel. So you, you flip to the section on.

Okay, I'm trying to save more time with this flywheel. Okay, here are eight steps that I can choose from that actually save time.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Yep. So, this is great because, uh, you were busy at the time.

Nathan Barry: Yep.

Darrell Vesterfelt: You had kids at the time. You had business going on. What is the offer that is going to feel so on point that you're going to feel stupid saying no to it?

Right? Like, oh, I'm so confident in what is being offered here that it's going to solve my problem and I want to make sure there's no gaps missing in that. That makes sense. So plug and play with something that you said right away. That's right to me. So it's like the training's important because you have to understand the concepts, the coaching is important, but I even may be too busy to show up to some of that stuff.

Like, how do I actually take this training, take this stuff and implement it to my business is super key. So let's make sure that [00:22:00] our ICP is not having any level of objection. to the offer here. Okay. So what are some objections that you think that the ICP might have to spending money to solve the problem in this

Nathan Barry: way?

Okay. So let me write down

Darrell Vesterfelt: objections.

Nathan Barry: Objections that I might have, um, time to implement. Yep.

Let's say time. Uh, I like unique business. It won't work for me. Yep.

Darrell Vesterfelt: That's a good one. It won't work for me.

Nathan Barry: Uh, I think another one could be, you know, have the team to run it. Yep. Say team.

Darrell Vesterfelt: It's like, how will a flywheel actually impact me in my solo business?

Nathan Barry: Or say team slash solo.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Yep. How about this one?

Nathan Barry: Is it actually going to work? Yeah. Like, am I just buying, you [00:23:00] know, an, an idea that's thrown out there? Is this just the hot new thing? Yep. Right.

Darrell Vesterfelt: This is a common one is like, do I feel confident that if I invest the time and the money for this, it's actually going to impact, will it work? It's kind of a big one.

Kind of a big one. And here's one that I just would like spoiler alert. This is for everybody. Is, is it worth it? Right. Is the value there. That's, that's an objection that, whether you're selling a 9 product or a 9, 000 product, I think it's always there.

So. Let's talk about each of these objections really quickly and just kind of verbalize some of this out. Uh, and if you can be recording, we, and we actually are recording, but while you're doing this at home, if you can be recording this, like either in like, kind of like just stream of thought journaling, or if you can record yourself talking it out, whatever is easy, this is going to be the gold and the copy that you write down the road.

So

Nathan Barry: that's something where. If we weren't doing this in the studio,

Darrell Vesterfelt: [00:24:00] live, we'd have our phone on the table, or

Nathan Barry: record the screencast, you know, just working the Google Doc, brainstorming things. Correct.

Darrell Vesterfelt: So, uh, time to implement. This is going to take me too long. I'm already busy. I'm already overwhelmed.

Nathan Barry: In the course, we talk about what flywheel you should build first, and it's the one that frees up the most time.

Yeah. And so we've already tackled that. And We have the plug and play resources to help you. Yeah To take as much of it out of that as possible Yeah,

Darrell Vesterfelt: so the first is that the first thing that you learn when you come in is like which flywheel?

Nathan Barry: It's not the very first thing but it's it's pretty

Darrell Vesterfelt: early on in

Nathan Barry: the

Darrell Vesterfelt: course.

Nathan Barry: Yeah

Darrell Vesterfelt: So there's a term here an old school term here that I'm gonna hit on it's like risk removal here Okay, so how can you remove the risk of? Hey Nathan, I'm already overwhelmed, I've already got too much time, I don't have time to even do the things that I know I'm supposed to be doing, how can I even make time to learn something?

Right.

Darrell Vesterfelt: So why do I, why can't I, what's the risk removal that you can create for [00:25:00] me here that makes it a no brainer for me to say I have to invest the time?

Nathan Barry: Yeah, there's two ways that I could see going with this. One is talking through how easy. Or, or like, I actually never want to make something sound easy.

Like that's just one of the things in the way that I sell

Darrell Vesterfelt: inauthentic and it's not true.

Nathan Barry: Yeah. And so I want to, I tend to talk, you know, if I'm recruiting someone to my company, I'm like talking about how hard the problems we are to solve. Here's why they shouldn't join. So I almost want to do the same thing here, but And

Darrell Vesterfelt: by the way, I want to, I want to pause here for a second because this is a huge deal.

I think a lot of times people are afraid of selling because they don't want to be inauthentic. Right. Right. So this has to be believable too. Like we can't just make something up like, Hey, in 15 days you're going to get 2x the result. Like we all know the companies and the creators that do that. And we just don't believe them.

It's not believable. You want to be authentic here. So, I think this is a huge point. It's like, if you start having the [00:26:00] anxiety monster come up during this stage, it's like, good news. It's like, we gotta keep workshopping this until it's believable. Right. And it's true. We're not lying to somebody here. I think that's super key as part of these objections.

Nathan Barry: I think So, on the time, what I would say is two parts. Or three things. First, it's gonna take a lot of time. Second, not only is it worth it, but you actually don't have another choice because we think about burnout and longevity and then reaching your full potential. Like if you're actually pursuing those things, you have to do it with systems and flywheels and you know, you're like, you will not last as a business.

That might be too much fear mongering, but like you're not going to achieve your full potential if you don't do that. Yeah. It's like, I can't afford not to. You can't afford not to.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Yeah. Because the, the result of you not doing this is more of what you currently have. Right. And you already are feeling overwhelmed.

You're already feeling like, I know my potential is here, but I'm actually right here. And there's a gap between those two things.

Nathan Barry: And then I think the third thing, [00:27:00] as it relates to the time objection, is that You don't have to overhaul everything. We're going to start with one simple flywheel that frees up the most of your time.

And even if that's the only impact you get out of this, we're freeing up five to ten hours a week that then you can You know used to implement more flywheels or even just stick with like only that flywheel. That's all I got And it's like, okay cool. I just saved, you know, 3, 000 hours a year You know, it wouldn't be that much but you know, yeah,

Darrell Vesterfelt: cool.

That's a good that's a good objection Response to that objection. It won't work for me. This is something I want to dive into again We're kind of risk removal here a little bit Social proof. So what's really cool is you've talked about the creator flywheels so much so far is you have case studies of different types of people who've used this.

Nathan Barry: Yes.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Right. So it won't work for me. The way to overcome this [00:28:00] objection is who are the stories you can tell of people using this framework who have maybe a diverse background that people can say, Oh, I see myself in this person and they've used this process and it's worked for them. So I think that's one here.

Tell me a couple of like Maybe why array of people I know that you talk about Sahil quite a bit.

Nathan Barry: Yeah, but another one He was actually a student in one of the early cohorts is Jay Klaus Who then went in and implemented the content ideas flywheel and we now have this beautifully produced video that the kit team did Of him talking through the impact that that's had on his business great and that's a flywheel That for anyone who produces, you know weekly newsletter or something like that Which is a lot of my ideal customers they implement even just that one flywheel, correct You know, it'll save a few hours a week and they'll start to

Darrell Vesterfelt: see those results.

So that's a good example You probably want to have two or three diverse diverse stories or testimonials like that in your sales messaging, on your sales page, and in your emails whatsoever. So that's a good example. We won't dive into all [00:29:00] of those, but that's great here. So how about the objection of, I don't have a team?

Nathan, good for you, buddy, but you've got 60 employees at Kit, and you've got personal people who help you record your content. I don't have a team, I'm just a solo person. What about the objection for that?

Nathan Barry: I think that in that case, this is even, even more important or just as important. And the reason is that if you don't have a team, you also don't have a boss who will keep you consistent and on task.

And if we're trying to create compounding results, we need to find a system to the same things over and over again for a long period of time. And you can reach your full potential. But it's that like, I think so many of us who have. built solo businesses at one point in our careers do this thing where we just jump, we're, we're scattered and we jump from thing to thing.

And so it's so important if you don't have a team to have a team. The [00:30:00] systems and the accountability to stay consistent for a long time.

Darrell Vesterfelt: That's good. Okay. So objection here, will it work? This kind of ties back to here is like the testimonials and the social proof here. It's really cool. If Nathan tells me that it works, but Nathan has a financial incentive to tell me that it works, whether it works or it doesn't.

Nathan Barry: Yep.

Darrell Vesterfelt: So this is a great here to overcome these objections of will it work. Yeah. is testimonials and stories. That is key, key, key here. It's like, let Jay tell you how it works, let somebody else tell you. Because again, cool if you tell me it works, even better if somebody tells me how using Nathan's process has worked for them.

So I think that's good here. And then is it worth it? It's here. So this is going to like lead into pricing a little bit, right? So let's, let's put a pin in this. Let's talk about the price of it. So what were you kind of thinking as far as, Pricing the product and I know you've done some cohorts before.

Yep So what have you seen working as far as pricing so far and what were you kind of thinking? Let's let's kind of

Nathan Barry: talk Yes, I've done two cohorts each of ten people. Yeah, the first one [00:31:00] I taught all the material live and Saw what questions we had, you know went from there Which is brilliant, by the way.

Good job. Thank you. Take a lesson from anybody who's

Darrell Vesterfelt: creating a course or a program for the first time.

Nathan Barry: Uh, then the second cohort, I had created scripted lessons and then I recorded them all. Uh, but you know, home office, put them all on loom so people could leave comments anywhere they had questions. 1. 5 speed, you know, whatever.

Uh, and then, uh, so it was basically sort of like, if anyone remembers Khan Academy, right? There is where. Um, you know, traditional classroom is you learn the material in class, you do the homework by yourself. And it's like, no, no, no, let's flip that. So this was the homework is learning the material. And then our in class time was workshopping and answering questions, working the flywheels.

So it was the second cohort. Uh, and then now we're coming up on, you know, the third iteration. And so what I'm thinking [00:32:00] about now is just how to. How to package and position that. But you're talking about, is it worth it or where are you going from there?

Darrell Vesterfelt: Yeah. So like what is, what is your kind of intuition saying as far as pricing goes on this?

Let's start with the intuition because I think that's a good starting point. It is not the only starting point, but it's point one in the framework of how you think pricing should work here. So what's your intuition? Yeah. So first

Nathan Barry: I want to focus on professional creators who really value their time in my time.

Yeah. I want to create transformations for, uh, people at that level. And so I want to price this high. Yeah. The highest I've ever priced anything. And so, uh, talking to other creators, like I've, I've learned from Dan Martell and, and others. Um, so gut feeling. Is to do something like eight thousand dollars a year for the group coaching for everything Yeah, and then I do want to make the material accessible like that That's a high price right now and a lot of people won't be able to afford it.

And so thinking about something like [00:33:00] 3, 000 for The training and the resources. Great. Uh, but not.

Darrell Vesterfelt: So let's write that down. Kind of like your pricing up here. Let's get over here. Is your intuition is saying somewhere in that 8 to 10 or 8, 000 range for the year.

Nathan Barry: Yep. And then

Darrell Vesterfelt: Cool. So tell me really quickly the difference between these. So this would be access to the training and then a year of the coaching. Yep. And then also a You have access to the resources as well. Is that kind of how it would work?

Nathan Barry: Exactly. Great. So this is the, what is that? 600 bucks a month? Yeah.

Something like that.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Uh, and then the 3000 would get just access to the training and no coaching. Correct.

Nathan Barry: Training and resources, no coaching. Great. And that would be a one time payment.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Great.

Nathan Barry: Yeah.

Darrell Vesterfelt: And would this have the ability to do monthly or how would, how would that work?

Nathan Barry: Yeah. Trying to figure that out.

Um, I could see doing like. Um, maybe it's three months for [00:34:00] 3000 or, uh, there's something where it's a much higher price per month. But if you, if you don't want to make that commitment, because one thing that I'm wrestling with is I want to price it high enough that I'm only getting people in who are really committed and where the transformation is meaningful.

There's going to be people who are like, Oh, if I free up 10 hours a week, that's actually only worth, well, you know, a few hundred bucks a week. And it's like, okay. Sorry,

Darrell Vesterfelt: like you can't even in good conscious say it's worth spending that money if you're not getting if you're not making

Nathan Barry: hundreds of thousands of dollars for business already great and I say 250 but like I've already helped people who are making a million three million or more correct, but that's at least the baseline That's a hurdle to humble jump over.

Um, so yeah, there's some monthly offering Or some lower priced offering that maybe comes out to 1500 a month or a thousand a month.

Yeah

Nathan Barry: Um Because 8, 000 is a good amount of money to commit

Darrell Vesterfelt: to something. I agree. You and I have kind of talked offline about some of this, I think I'm actually coming around to this 8, [00:35:00] 000 price point more and more.

One framework that I want to talk about here that we can't do in this context right now is, uh, I think about real estate. So if you're going to put your house on the market tomorrow, what's the first thing the real estate agent does? The comps. The comps, right? And so, one thing that can help you, especially at a new, with a new product is looking at comps.

So, are there similar programs out there for similar people that is in the same range? And am I in the right neighborhood here? Because what you don't want to do is, especially without a ton of context here, and again, the more people that go through this program you'll be able to kind of find your footing of what is the best pricing long term.

But do we have comps? Like, Can I tell myself a story that's believable that 8, 000 is an amount of money that people in my ICP are going to pay for the transformation that we're talking about here. So that's some homework that I want you to do a little bit offline here is looking at other programs and seeing if the comps are kind of in that right range.

Yeah,

Nathan Barry: I think of two people. So I mentioned Dan Martell. Uh, this is the pricing that he uses, right? I [00:36:00] was asking him, what should I do? And he's like, honestly, this works great. I would do that. Go with that. Uh, another is Bonnie Christine. She, uh, has a program, um, Pricing is similar. She's got structured a bit differently.

Yeah, and there's someone else Mike Brown who has a Like a course in community called unbreakable wealth great. And and so they're all Roughly in this range. So

Darrell Vesterfelt: this is a believable story that this is the right range based on the comps that you've looked at

Nathan Barry: I

Darrell Vesterfelt: think

Nathan Barry: so. Cool. Great. Now, I'll just say that on One hand, I'm very confident in the love like the value delivered.

Yeah, right some of these flywheels Like the ones that I teach in the course that work with Flywheel, uh, with, uh, Saw Hill Bloom. I mean, that Flywheel has made millions of dollars. And so like, you know, 500, 600 bucks a month for that level of, of content. That's absolutely huge. But I do have this like, Oh, am I charging too much for it?

Or, you know, when we're talking back to 2014 Nathan, I'm thinking about the [00:37:00] products I was selling then were like 40. 250, you know, like that was the range and so this is entirely different territory, but then at the same time I'm like look I've built a business to 40 plus million a year in revenue, like for this to even be worth my time, uh, I gotta, I gotta charge a lot.

Darrell Vesterfelt: You're hitting on some really great points and I want to just like normalize this for anybody who's thinking about pricing is like even Nathan, who's built a 40 million a year company is like, is this too much? Like, is it worth it? That's a normal part of the process. And so you kind of know that you're in the right range when you're feeling some of those questions popping up.

So I just want to affirm that a bit. The one strategy that we can do here is because the more social proof that you have, the more powerful overcoming these objections are. The more powerful becomes seeing people actually have this transformation is like a founding member pricing. And I've seen this often work really well for people is, hey, the first group of people that come through, it's normally going to be 8, 000, but it's going to be 6, 000 or 5, 000.

The first time [00:38:00] through, I'm going to limit it to 50 people and that's it. So some sort of like founder member pricing, I've seen a really positive strategy that will also then give you the confidence of like, Oh, wait, people are really responding here. We can build some momentum, we can get some more, more, uh, case studies and testimonials as well.

This, what this does, why I like this strategy is because there's a network effect that happens when you have people taking the course.

Nathan Barry: Right.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Right. And that's a natural way for this to grow is. Some of what we're doing is like making this feel automatic a bit. The positioning is going to allow it to feel automatic because people really clearly understand.

And then it's like when other people are selling on your behalf because they're having a transformation that can't help talk about the transformation they're having. It's just, it's beneficial to you. So I like this founder member price. As I say that, what's your intuition say about maybe a founder? I think

Nathan Barry: I think it makes sense overall, what you're talking about, that flywheel, the word of mouth drives.

Yeah. So I, I think of a [00:39:00] couple things that more members helps with. Yeah. Right. So it's driving word of mouth. Uh, it's also making the content and training better because we're overcoming the objections of will it work, uh, or it won't work for me, uh, and then time to implement. And those are things that better resources and better training.

and better coaching help with. And so I'm not worried in the short term, but like I have, I think 15 flywheel examples that you can copy and paste in your business. My dream over time is to get that to 50, 50. And you know, I want this huge library that you can flip through and see all these examples. And you're like, Oh, here's it working for all of these students.

And so having more members gives me. more flywheels to workshop and fix and then to put into my library. And so the founder member price of maybe something like 5, 000. Yeah. I think fits well with that of I can get, [00:40:00] you know, another 20, 50 members in at that price then I know it will get that much better.

And we'll create even more transformations. And we'll do it more officially. Like a lot of the transformations that I've created have been like an in person workshop that I've been teaching. Yup. You know, and its Mostly the same material, but like that even was as I was workshopping. This is

Darrell Vesterfelt: now taking its final form, right?

And so this is a great way to get the momentum in the final form here. What

Nathan Barry: do you think? Like, how is 5, 000 that feels right to

Darrell Vesterfelt: me? That was like my intuition as well. I think 5, 000 is great. Now, question I have for you is, are you going to want to limit the amount of people that you make this pricing available to?

Nathan Barry: Oh yeah. Every launch needs scarcity of some kind.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Exactly. Right. That was a, that was a softball set up for you. So So let's talk about scarcity for a little bit launch here. There's gonna be two levers of scarcity that we want to, we want to hit on. One is there's a limited number of opportunity for this deal.

This is an amazing deal. I don't know what the percentage off here is, but it's pretty significant. 40 something percent probably. Um, so [00:41:00] percent off here. And then a time frame, like you can only get access to this deal for this period of time. So you're kind of like dual scarcity here, which I think is the best thing.

So time and count? Time and count. Okay. Right. So time and count are going to be our scarcity levers that we pull on here.

Nathan Barry: Um. So we'll just go time. And then I'll just say seats. Yep.

Darrell Vesterfelt: So let's talk about seats first. Yeah. How many seats make sense for a group of people coming in initially here?

Nathan Barry: You know, the previous two cohorts have been 10 and that's where I can really invest individually.

Yeah. But I was really, you know, I spent a lot of time on their individual flywheels and all that because it was developing the material. Uh, I don't think 10 is not really worth it at this stage for my, for my time. You know, if this is a pretty privileged position to be, but if we're going just 10 times 5, [00:42:00] 000, it's 50, 000.

Kip made that yesterday, you know, like that's

Darrell Vesterfelt: not,

Nathan Barry: that's not that meaningful.

Darrell Vesterfelt: And you've also hit that number before, right? So we're wanting to stretch here a little bit to see what the possibility of this business line is for you. Yeah,

Nathan Barry: so that's the, that's probably the, the absolute floor that would make any sense.

50 sounds, feels kind of like the,

Darrell Vesterfelt: the top end of So 10 makes it worth it. 50 is maybe our stretch goal. So maybe let's put like 25 as like, hey, if we hit 25, this would be a home run. Yeah. Yeah, it'd be a good hit and the home run would be 50. We're on base. We're on base. We're in business here. I like that.

So, so kind of our range here is 10, 25, 50 as far as a goal here. So this is super important for the goal. So,

Nathan Barry: And so it's just, I'll just write that 10, 25, 50. Great. [00:43:00] So 10 would be, this is actually something I wrestled with, is like doing a small launch Like, Hey, you know, we did, we've just iterated through this, especially because this is kind of my side hustle, right?

It's like the main business is obviously the focus. So I've done these 10 person cohorts. And so then it's like, now it's in its final form. Let's do another 10 person cohort in order to test it out. It was kind of where I was at, but then now that I'm thinking about, I'm like, no, we've done the test iterations.

Like I know this works. And so something bigger. So actually for me, it's 25 or 50. Yeah, look at that. Look at the progress we're making. Yeah, 25 or

Darrell Vesterfelt: 50. Yeah, that's great. So this is the range that I think you'll feel really comfortable in, right? So no more than 50 can be there, but we want to really hit 25.

So here's how I do the math on a high ticket offering for 125. I think a waitlist strategy, uh, to some kind of launch. We'll talk about the specific launch here a little bit would be key. So, I think of a waitlist, [00:44:00] building a waitlist, there are some factors here that are super important. Number one is that people know this pricing.

Nathan Barry: Right. Which at the

Darrell Vesterfelt: moment they don't. They don't. So, I think you've built a little bit of a waitlist on the flywheel stuff a bit. So,

Nathan Barry: we have a thousand people on the waitlist. Great. Uh, some of them will, some of the early people will have known the price of the previous cohorts,

Darrell Vesterfelt: but most people don't know the price or the offer.

Great. And then the bigger email list that you're going to promote to is how much? 49, 000. 49, 000. Great. So, the math I do in my head here is high ticket. If they know the, so they know the price, seven and a half percent conversion of a wait list. So people who are raising their hand saying I'm interested in this thing you're selling and I know the price to get to 25.

So let's do the math backwards of this.

Nathan Barry: So if you're a thousand people, if they, if they knew the price, then you'd be going to

Darrell Vesterfelt: 25

Nathan Barry: first. So 25,

Darrell Vesterfelt: if seven, if seven and a half percent conversion equals 25, what is the wait list number goal that we're working towards here?

Nathan Barry: Is

Darrell Vesterfelt: that 330? Yeah. That's good. You got a phone.

Let's use your [00:45:00] calculator here. Okay. I think it's so 25 divided by 0. 075.

Nathan Barry: Yeah, 333.

Darrell Vesterfelt: So 333 people is the goal here. What's that for 50? Then 666.

Nathan Barry: Yeah,

Darrell Vesterfelt: we'll call it 667 just to be safe.

Nathan Barry: Exactly.

Darrell Vesterfelt: So these are kind of the goal numbers that we want to have of people who are raising their hand and saying, I know the price, I know the content, and I want this course.

And I think that will set us up for success here. Uh, as well. So what's the

Nathan Barry: seven and a half percent?

Darrell Vesterfelt: What's that based on based on 15 years of doing this and just kind of knowing the range of this So so i've done at this point dozens and dozens of high ticket launches before so I just kind of in my mind Know that's a that's a goal that i'm moving here towards So

Nathan Barry: one thing that i'm thinking about is i've got people on this from quite a few different Sources.

Some is from my list. Others, you know, I talked about Flywheels on the Mighty [00:46:00] Networks Summit. Right. And so one thing that I did is I gave away a bunch of these resources and people were signing up for the waitlist in that. So you know, you're getting some very, very warm traffic and some very cold traffic.

Darrell Vesterfelt: So what we have now is we have a few phases of your marketing. So we've got all the public stuff, the social, the podcast, the things that our people have not opted in for yet. That's one phase. Another phase is the email list. The next phase down is the waitlist as is, and so we want to create strategies for each of those phases that drives to this new waitlist between 333 and

Nathan Barry: 667,

Darrell Vesterfelt: uh, people.

So, we kind of want to forget about the people who have raised their hand so far, uh, and we want to think about a timeline over the next few weeks before you launch this of getting this many people on a, a new waitlist. Okay. And say like, hey, it's actually here, it's actually coming, this is what it looks like, and we want to talk about.

We want to hit on the ideal customer. We want to talk about the transformation. We want to talk about the offer. We want to overcome some of [00:47:00] these objections. And what we're really trying to get to is this number of people on a wait list who know the price and then also know the timing of when it's going to happen.

Right? And I think the ideal time frame is Four to six weeks.

Nathan Barry: Okay

Darrell Vesterfelt: before you want to open the cart on your offering here

Nathan Barry: Okay, so we're going new waitlist new

Darrell Vesterfelt: waitlist

Nathan Barry: And this is It's basically just downstream Of our of our previous offer So you have a

Darrell Vesterfelt: thousand people who are the most highly qualified people so far But we have to qualify them in the next level.

You're saying hey this This opportunity is coming up in a few weeks and here's the price, right? So a bunch of people are going to be like, ooh, that's not, I'm not the right person for this or ooh, now is not the right time. And so what this new waitlist is doing is like right people, right timing.

Nathan Barry: Okay, so we're qualifying the new waitlist with price and timing.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Correct. So there's a, we can talk about a bunch of different [00:48:00] tactics here and that may be worth our time to get specific about all the tactics we can use, but I like things like just emails to these people. Hey, let's do stories. Let's take clips from a podcast. Hey, let's record a podcast episode about this coming out.

This

Nathan Barry: will, this will work pretty well

Darrell Vesterfelt: for that. Yeah. What just happened is that we've used content that's going to be beneficial for other people, but now anybody who is going to be qualified here also just learned a lot about your course. Something that I've seen

Nathan Barry: people do is record like a, a fairly casual loom.

To one person Justin Moore

Darrell Vesterfelt: is the best of us.

Nathan Barry: Okay, this

Darrell Vesterfelt: is all the time I think it's but J Klaus does this sometimes too. So yeah, I think that's really great We're

Nathan Barry: just like you're sending, you know, the to the thousand people that we have Yeah, and say hey just want to give you a heads up of what I'm working on.

Yeah, you know, I've been working these cohorts I'm super excited about where the course is. It's dialed in. Yeah, and so I just want to let you know We're gonna be launching it Here's the dates, uh, here's the price, [00:49:00] here's who, you know, some of that. So it's, you have all the correct positioning and all of that.

Yep. But maybe it's done in a less polished way, like more telling a friend about it versus a

Darrell Vesterfelt: perfectly scripted course trailer. And I think for that thousand people, that's a, that's brilliant because they've already indicated they're interested on some level. Right. So I think that's a brilliant message.

So if we're talking a four week window here, I would message those people four to six times via email to that 1000 person wait list to get them to qualify here.

Nathan Barry: Yep.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Right. So I think 46 is about the right amount of touch points with those people. So I think the casual loom video is a great example of that.

I think, uh, just a basic email like, Hey, I've been working on this for a long time. You've been waiting for this. It's coming. Right. Excited announcement. Loom video walking through the features a little bit. A story you telling a story of like the full potential stuff here. It's like, let's let's get that.

Hair standing up on our arm feeling again and create some content That's like a love letter to somebody who [00:50:00] feels like they're trying really hard not hitting their potential So you can get like a mix of different content types here that are getting that but I think 46 emails to that 1, 000 person is really key.

Yep.

Darrell Vesterfelt: So the second thing is To your bigger list. It was like you said 40 to 49, 000 49, 000 people Uh, I like teaching. So why don't we do a webinar in the next month teaching the flywheel concept. And we're not going to sell the flywheel course on that webinar. We're going to move those people into qualifying them onto the wait list.

Right? So I think that's a good example of the bigger email list here.

I'm signing you up for work in the next month.

Nathan Barry: Yeah, and so that's driving people into the waitlist.

Darrell Vesterfelt: What's really great about that is like, you don't have to get super concerned about like, is my pitch dialed in right or any of that stuff. What we're really doing is just saying like, Hey, I built this thing.

Right. Twenty some people have gone through it. I've talked about it everywhere. Here's the price. It's coming up in a few weeks. Like, just opt in here. And one of my

Nathan Barry: favorite things [00:51:00] in any pitch is to separate the convincing you you should buy, like making you want the thing and giving you the ability to buy it and having those be entirely separate.

Correct. This was a secret playbook that we had. Okay. We did it all the time. And so, so in this, in this webinar where we're teaching at the end, you might say like, Hey, Here's where you, you know, normally there'd be a pitch to buy something. Uh, we're actually not ready to launch it yet. It's coming in this time period.

If you're interested, you know, if you meet these things and you don't meet these disqualifiers, like here's where you can, uh, sign up or apply or. Whatever, and then we can like build that momentum, uh, and and tease it without actually being available. And here's

Darrell Vesterfelt: why I love teaching so much of the sales strategy is because.

For that 49, 000 people, you can have again, probably four to six touch points about this webinar,

and

Darrell Vesterfelt: anybody who's not interested is going to be like, [00:52:00] man, that Nathan's a great guy. He just teaches free content all the time,

right?

Darrell Vesterfelt: And I'm not then like pulling deposits out of my list by doing pitches.

It's unnecessary.

Nathan Barry: Yeah, right.

Darrell Vesterfelt: So anybody getting,

Nathan Barry: you know, maybe, right, because we're trying to get to six, 700 people. Yeah. And so, yeah, we're just trying to hand raise. Exactly. Right.

Darrell Vesterfelt: And so if somebody doesn't register for the webinar here, they're probably not the right person at the right time ready for this content.

They probably aren't resonating with the positioning here. They're not the ideal customer. And all they've heard is that Nathan teaches free content. And again, that's a benefit to them. And then I think for the top level stuff, social, the webinar is also really great and easy to convert to. So now we're moving people who are on social that are not on the email list that we can really talk about.

Nathan Barry: Yep. That makes sense. That is the next

Darrell Vesterfelt: level. You've had how many people go through the previous cohorts? About 20? Yeah. So, you've got 20 people who could also help you share about this webinar.

Right.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Hey, Jay, would you be willing to share about this, this thing that you had a positive impact on? Right.

Would you be willing to like, [00:53:00] you know, do a, do something on Instagram together? Social post, yeah. Or a social post, or send an email, or mention it in your newsletter. Uh, and if you really wanted to, you could figure out some sort of affiliate commission on that, or even just see if people just want to help.

So, you've kind of now got four phases here, which is the really qualified people, the thousand, the 49, 000 people. We're going to do this with a high value webinar, the social people. And then you're asking, giving the ability for other people to share, uh, about this as well. So all of this towards a goal of getting this many people on the wait list.

And then we're just going to run a sales sequence to these people. For that wait list. Yep. Uh, when the time is right to open the cart. And I think the ideal time frame here is because again we've got both a time and a seats. So the time frame here is like 7 days. So probably a 7 day email launch sequence.

Okay. To these people.

And this is like, this is the old school stuff that we've done for a long time. Right? Okay, so we're going a 7 day window on [00:54:00] the launch. 7 day window on the launch. Yep. Uh, but the other caveat here is that like there is like that seven day window could be gone in three days. So we really want to amp up the urgency of that early on because we have a dual, dual

Nathan Barry: urgency, dual urgency

Darrell Vesterfelt: here.

So, um, I would be sending an email per day to this waitlist for seven days. Um, and starting there, uh, one kind of other caveat here is, Um, a 5, 000 purchase is not insignificant, even for somebody who's making a couple hundred thousand dollars a year. So what we can do outside of the emails is maybe opening up a couple of Zoom calls where you could do like Uh, group sales, right?

So that way it's like maybe, you know, on day three or four, you're saying, Hey, I'm actually going to open up an hour on zoom today where I'm going to answer any questions and that zoom is only for the people on this list, right? People who are qualified. So you're not getting some random person who wants to ask Nathan about [00:55:00] a SAS startup that he's got going on or whatever else.

So it's a qualified people giving them an ability to ask some of the questions they have live. And what's really cool about this is you could potentially even hear objections that we haven't thought about here yet of real time. So,

Nathan Barry: and then maybe the objections I hear there might, I might write into a day six email.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Exactly right. It can affect the copy, the rest of the, the rest of the script through. So yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So how are you feeling about all this so far? I know we've gone like drinking out of a fire hydrant so far, but how is this feeling as far as the strategy

Nathan Barry: Yeah, I feel good about it. I think that The new waitlist really clarifies a lot on, you know, anytime you're building a waitlist over a long period of time, you know, that there's like four cohorts in there, uh, in all these different attributes.

And so you're like, okay, how do we build confidence in that? And how do we make sure. It's before it's a waitlist for something about flywheels and now it's a waitlist. The new one is a [00:56:00] waitlist for this offer

Darrell Vesterfelt: about this price at this time, right? So if somebody could have joined that waitlist thing, you're like, man, I can't wait for this 200 course that Nathan's got about flywheels.

And they're like, yeah. That's totally wrong context, right? That's

Nathan Barry: launching in,

Darrell Vesterfelt: you

Nathan Barry: know, January

Darrell Vesterfelt: 2024. Yeah. Which is what they were expecting. And now it's November. Yeah. Exactly right. So, what other questions might come up about this? But I feel, I feel this is a good plan for you. But what other questions or things are you thinking about here?

Nathan Barry: Um, how do you think about when to introduce sales? So, you talked about group sales here. Yeah. Maybe that's where we're kind of at, at that price point. Uh, uh, There's a lot of people who, you know, are seeing at this, you know, three, five, eight thousand ten thousand dollar price point that it actually requires more of a conversation with someone.

Yeah. How do you think about that?

Darrell Vesterfelt: So I like doing this initial founder member launch without sales other than this group sales call first to see what happens. Okay. So if, if for some reason we were to get. 18 people here. Yep. It'd be a little [00:57:00] bit disappointing, but we've learned a lot,

Nathan Barry: right?

Darrell Vesterfelt: And one of the things we might have learned is like actually people need to have a conversation here And so that's when you can introduce maybe more of a traditional sales motion to a higher price point here in a major state but This is like the number one objective of this founder.

Pricing is actually learning,

right?

Darrell Vesterfelt: Because we're doing something we've never done before at a price we've never done before. So we want to learn as much as possible. So, uh, we'll learn quite a bit here. And I think the second time, the second iteration of this is the perfect time to potentially.

Introduce sales in there if you need to have that motion and you're for sure gonna learn that on this founder launch

Nathan Barry: Okay, that makes sense. And then as I think about long term You know, I plan to have some pretty significant budgets around Uh paid advertising and so that might be you have

Darrell Vesterfelt: dual dual strategies both sales and marketing working hand in hand here That makes sense

Nathan Barry: Okay, I

Darrell Vesterfelt: I think that's

Nathan Barry: good.

Maybe have a seat and we'll recap it a little bit. Sounds good Okay, so when we were talking about this You I was very [00:58:00] excited about the launch, but there's some details that didn't fit together. So a few of those things were, I felt like the packaging or the positioning still wasn't quite right. I think what I was doing is I was targeting like a, a mid level need, not a core desire.

Yeah. And. Thanks. You know, and so like, so I can reach my full potential is And we hit that drop moment and it was, it was like,

Darrell Vesterfelt: if you were in the room, you could feel it. You could actually feel that. And I think you'd want to keep doing that. So that, so that, so that until you hit that moment. And that's how, you know, you've hit something.

Nathan Barry: And I liked how you called out, you're like, and you're going to hate me. Like, you're going to be annoyed by this, but you know, the question's coming next. And I was like, I don't have anything deep. Oh, oh

Darrell Vesterfelt: yeah, no, I do have. And here's why you do it because Good positioning. You can never out tactic good positioning, right?

If you have good positioning here, you could be a mediocre marketing marketer and get good results, but you could be an excellent marketer and have [00:59:00] horrible positioning and it won't have good results. So this is part of like what I call the damn near automatic principles is like making sure the positioning hits that point where it's like, I'm actually moved.

Like my physical body is moved when I, when I think about this, that allows you to be, uh, have a wide range of results here, but that's the key. That's the foundation of everything. So that's why I started like, notice the conversation. This happens all the time. It's like, all right, it's 15 lessons and it's this, and it's this, it's like, timeout, timeout, slow down, let's go back up.

And this is a hugely important part of the process.

Nathan Barry: Yep. I like that. And all the other elements of the positioning still matter. Like we'll touch on those too, but through that, through that lens. The other thing that made a big difference for me is the new waitlist. Yeah. Because I knew that, yes, I've got a thousand people, but they're for flywheels as a whole.

And it's, it's a different level of qualification.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Here's how you become a good marketer and also stay aggressive and also a good human at the same time,

Nathan Barry: right?

Darrell Vesterfelt: Right. People, right time.

Nathan Barry: Right.

Darrell Vesterfelt: So. We're going to talk about [01:00:00] four to six messages to the wider audience, but like this group of people here, we can be more aggressive because they've raised their hand and we know they're interested.

So we don't have to have any half measures in our marketing here. Right. And this subconsciously happens to so many people where it's like, I'm not sure if that's it. So I'm going to do a half measure of promoting this product because I kind of have in the back of my mind, this fear that some of these people might not be interested.

Well, guess what? We know that this group, this new wait list is very interested. So we don't have to hold anything back when we're marketing this. One thing that you should also do in this launch sequence is a link trigger at the bottom of your emails. Hey, if you're not interested in this, for whatever reason, feel free to opt out.

You'll still get the rest of my content. You'll be able to go, that allows you to have no half measures when you're promoting this. Right. And that's super key when you get there. It's right people, right time.

Nathan Barry: Yeah. I love that. And then I think the last thing that stands out is All right. Two more things.

Uh, one on the price, you know, we can say the final [01:01:00] positioning is going to be 000, but we're doing this founder member pricing and, uh, you know, it gives us another form of urgency, understanding how more members feed the flywheel. Uh, that makes a lot of sense. And then the other thing is the objections, right?

As we create a sales page and videos for this, just making sure did we answer these questions? And now I have, uh, Uh, I, I can test it against, you know, friends who fit, you know, the ideal customer and say like, okay, what objections do you have? And you know, did it meet some of these objections? And

Darrell Vesterfelt: we've done a good job being really thoughtful about these objections, but you called this out in the group sales call and in the early emails.

So you want to pay attention to what people are actually saying, the replies you're getting from them. Cause we're

Nathan Barry: theoretical.

Darrell Vesterfelt: We're theoretical right now.

Nathan Barry: But by day three of our launch, if we do it right, we could be very like actually what and here's the best

Darrell Vesterfelt: part is you're going to get the actual words from your actual people about the objections they have and you can [01:02:00] actually respond in a way that is authentic and true and helps them overcome the fears or thoughts they might have that's hindering them from making a buying decision.

Yeah.

Nathan Barry: The authenticity all the way through is so important. Darrell, this is amazing. Thanks for, thanks for coming on. Uh, if people want to know more about what you do, uh, any of those things, where should they go to find

Darrell Vesterfelt: me on LinkedIn and send me a DM? I'd be happy to talk to you,

Nathan Barry: Darrell best of all on LinkedIn.

Darrell Vesterfelt: Yeah.

Nathan Barry: Sounds good. Thanks. Thanks for coming on. Thanks man.