The Nathan Barry Show

[00:00:00] Jefferson: I get about 2,500 to 3000 dms like a day.

[00:00:04] Nathan: Jefferson Fisher is sitting on a powerful set of assets, a successful law firm, a course, a newsletter, a podcast, a membership, and even an AI product.

[00:00:13] Jefferson: So I like to kinda look at it as, how many lines can I put in the water, and how many do I draw away from?

[00:00:19] Nathan: In this episode, we'd ask them the big question, what's the smartest path to $10 million while still enjoying life and having time for family?

[00:00:27] Jefferson: If you look at the bigger creators, they choose one and they push it all the way. And this is a recurring theme in my life, is, does it fit my world?

[00:00:34] Nathan: Well, it would have to be true to make a million dollars a year off of your podcast.

[00:00:39] Jefferson: Um, well, I think that would be really, really powerful. I like that a lot.

[00:00:44] Nathan: Let's say you sold an additional a hundred memberships a day. We're making an extra $10,000. Yeah. Every single day. And so when you have. That automation flow can really drive a lot of sales on autopilot. You're changing at

[00:00:58] all, man.

[00:00:59] Jefferson: Thanks, Nathan. This has been amazing. Dude. Do I get to take this with me?

[00:01:08] You went from basically zero followers on Instagram to 6 million in two years, right? Give me the quick version. What was that story?

[00:01:18] Oh, it was, uh, it, it felt like I was on a rocket ship just hanging on by my fingertips, Nathan. Um, when I first started making videos, I. It was reels were brand new, like Instagram, I think at the time, would competing with TikTok because the Instagram we, we grew up with was, you take a picture of your, your latte, right, your latte art, put a next pro filter on it and call it a day like that, that was your post.

[00:01:45] And so I had to Google, how do you make a reel? What, what does that mean? What's a call to action? How, what's a hook? I, I don't really know. And so I started experimenting, just making videos to figure out how it actually worked. Taking time to research, how does it work? What does it mean to take a video, crop it, add a caption, post it?

[00:02:05] What does that feel like? When I posted to my 800 followers that were all friends from college and law school, I mean, my heart was beating outta my chest. I felt so nervous. And now I don't even think about it. It's just a different dynamic. So I had to figure out what, what worked and what worked for me was I was sharing.

[00:02:23] What was true to my expertise, and that was communication because I'm a trial attorney and I used my concepts of what I teach my clients, how I prepare them for depositions and cross examination and, uh, closing arguments and put that into bite-sized pieces that I could share with them to help their next conversation.

[00:02:38] And over time it just developed into a lot of followers.

[00:02:42] Nathan: That just means that that stuff really resonated

[00:02:45] Jefferson: with them.

[00:02:45] Nathan: Uh, I mean, that's fantastic. And what I wanna dive in in this episode is just talking about this part now, what. You have all kinds of, of reach. Uh, in a second we'll map out the different channels that you have and all of that, but just talking about where do we go next?

[00:03:03] Jefferson: That, that is the question. That is always the question. I've been so excited to, uh, come on with you to discuss exactly what this question is. So I'm hopefully hope, hopefully we'll get some answers. I'm hoping that you just tell me what, what that is, what that next is.

[00:03:17] Nathan: Uh, I

[00:03:17] Jefferson: like it.

[00:03:17] Nathan: Yeah. Well, let's, well, let's start where, what are the main channels that you have?

[00:03:22] We'll make note of them and then dive in from there.

[00:03:24] Jefferson: Yeah, let's just put number in terms of channels. Uh, uh, let's just say content, like my daily content. Then I have, uh, those are the videos that I make every day and then I have a podcast. Yeah, daily content are just my tip. That's what's gotten me to the 6 million on Instagram, uh, podcast.

[00:03:50] Uh, 15 minute episodes I now do speaking. Mm-hmm. So I have a whole line of, um, so I speak for companies, conferences, all on how to handle difficult conversations. And then, uh, and that's a whole lot of fun for me. I have a book now that's Yeah. The book. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think we're four or five weeks now on the New York Times bestseller list, and out of that will be workbooks and other books mm-hmm.

[00:04:16] And journals and all that stuff. And then I have a membership Yep. Which I have not pushed very hard on, but I, I do have a membership. And then, um, I don't know if we would consider this part of the membership or not, but I have an ai Yeah. That I, I can be sold outside of the membership. So that's, there's that, like, I haven't done this yet, but I could do merch.

[00:04:40] That's really any kind of branding things could do. Have people, uh, I'm looking to hopefully finish up doing conversation cards to sell by the end of the year. Oh, that would do well, yeah. Conversation cards. So what if we, I don't know where under that

[00:04:53] Nathan: goes. Yeah, I, you tell me. Do we put like physical products in Yeah, merch in conversation cards?

[00:04:59] Jefferson: Yeah. Yeah. Uh,

[00:04:59] Nathan: just

[00:05:00] Jefferson: products, maybe

[00:05:00] Nathan: Products. Products, yeah. Whatever that is. I mean, those conversation cards would do fantastic, right?

[00:05:06] Jefferson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I have a lot of people asking for those flashcards, that kind of thing, but that's, that's generally. You go, what is the world of a creator? Right? Who's doing this?

[00:05:16] And by the way, I'm learning as I go. Like I, you could get rid of all these cameras. I'm still very interested in like, how do I do this, Nathan? Um, and I guess I, I'm not sure if where you would put this, but I have a, a newsletter. Yep. Right? Yeah. Through, uh, a company that's pretty good in newsletters, right?

[00:05:34] Pretty good in, uh, newsletters. Yeah.

[00:05:37] Nathan: Let's put some numbers to it, just to map this out. Okay. Um, so daily content, that's the 6 million followers we've been talking about. Instagram, you, it's a, it's more than that. We have about 12 million overall. Okay. Between TikTok, Instagram, LinkedIn, LinkedIn. Oh, YouTube.

[00:05:52] Jefferson: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:53] Nathan: 12 million followers. Uh, what numbers would you put to the podcast?

[00:05:57] Jefferson: Ooh, that's hard. Um, I probably get 1.5, I think Million impressions. Do you think it's over a hundred thousand downloads in episode? Yes.

[00:06:08] Nathan: Okay.

[00:06:09] Jefferson: I'm, I'd say that's a good number to, that's a good number to use. Okay. Alright. So over a hundred k, uh, per episode.

[00:06:17] Nathan: Yeah, of course.

[00:06:19] Jefferson: Some of them do better. Some of them are 90, some of 'em are whatever, but it's, it's starting to certainly increase,

[00:06:24] Nathan: uh, you up for sharing, speaking fees. Any numbers there that you're willing to share?

[00:06:28] Jefferson: Sure. So it, right now it depends what I'm doing, but it ranges anywhere from let's say 15 to 45.

[00:06:36] Yeah. And then some opportunities are larger than that.

[00:06:40] Nathan: We'll just say 15 to 50 K plus. Yeah. And then you have a limitation on this

[00:06:47] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:06:47] Nathan: Where you're saying you'll do up to three speaking gigs a month. Is that right?

[00:06:51] Jefferson: Yeah, I try to, it really for travel. Yeah. And I don't wanna be gone all the time, so I try to say up to three speaking engagements.

[00:06:57] Mm-hmm. That's it. Um, and keep it there.

[00:07:00] Nathan: Three per month. That sounds good. Uh, all right. The book. How many copies have we sold?

[00:07:07] Jefferson: Uh, I think overall up to this point, all formats is about 200,000.

[00:07:12] Nathan: That's amazing. Yeah. It's been cool. I wouldn't be surprised if by the time this episode comes out, that number is double, maybe.

[00:07:21] All right. The membership.

[00:07:22] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:07:22] Nathan: You were telling me you're on track for a huge amount this year. What's the, you wanna talk number of members? What are the numbers that you're for sharing?

[00:07:30] Jefferson: Uh, you can say that we're, we'll be close to seven figures. Okay. At, uh, end of year. Okay. We'll just say seven figure.

[00:07:41] Yeah. And all of these are ranges. Oh yeah. So like, even with the speaking, it's, it's sometimes it's much more, sometimes it's for free. A hundred percent.

[00:07:52] Nathan: Yeah. And then the ai, uh, yeah. As you've got that on, on Delphi.

[00:07:57] Jefferson: Yeah, that's correct. And I think I have, we have that at 5 99 a month. Mm-hmm. Per you. And then they

[00:08:04] Nathan: were saying that it's one of their most popular.

[00:08:07] Jefferson: Yeah. They, uh, told me yesterday, I think I'm like in the top three of their users and I'm, um, that's, that's awesome. And then also that AI is, is also included for those that are in the membership. Membership. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So some people don't want the membership, they just want the ai. Yeah. What's the price point on the membership?

[00:08:22] So it's 97 a month or a thousand a year.

[00:08:26] Nathan: Sounds good. Products are still coming. Yeah. Uh, the newsletter. How many subscribers you have? You tell me. I think I have, uh, I need three 50

[00:08:35] Jefferson: or so. That sounds good. I'll look it up later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't like that. All right. This is the Jefferson Fisher. I don't think I've ever done this, by the way.

[00:08:45] So this is all looking, looking great for me.

[00:08:48] Nathan: There's one other thing that we haven't in here that we haven't mentioned. Uh. Outside of the creator world, but I think it's important to call out, you have this like, you know, little law firm with Oh, that thing with 20 employees and like Exactly. All these partners in it and everything else,

[00:09:04] Jefferson: right?

[00:09:05] Yeah. I also have a, uh, an entire law firm and, uh, what I don't think anybody knows is I also own a restaurant and a coffee shop, but I'm, um, selling those in, in at the end of this month. Okay. Actually. So we'll leave them off. Leave them off. Yeah. Yeah. Too many things, too many things I'm looking to, to reduce it.

[00:09:28] Nathan: Um, okay. So in all of this, first, as you see it all mapped out, is there anything that stands out to you where you're like, Ooh, that's, you know, I hadn't thought about it that way. Or like, any reactions as you see it mapped out in front of you?

[00:09:43] Jefferson: You know, I, one, I look at it and go, okay, that's a lot. I. To me, like, I don't know what else I'm missing.

[00:09:49] I dunno what else I could do. Mm-hmm. With it. I feel like the people, the creators, that, um, let's say that kinda in my space, maybe the, the top of the top, and that would be like a, a Mel or a Andrew.

[00:10:04] Nathan: So these are, these are people that you text with and hang out, but we mean Yes. Mel Robbins. Yes. Andrew Huberman.

[00:10:11] Yes. And Steven Bartlett. Yes.

[00:10:13] Jefferson: All, all wonderful, cool people. Yeah. It's this weird space where, you know, like because of what you do, you, you're able to get in touch with

[00:10:21] Nathan: Oh yeah.

[00:10:21] Jefferson: Huge, uh, uh, way, way bigger than any of these people. And so, um, these are people that. We're able to encourage each other. Like the more numbers you get, it's like the air gets thinner.

[00:10:33] Right. And you kind of all start to know each other. And because Right. You don't really have any friends in this space. I mean, I, I came into it not knowing anybody

[00:10:41] Nathan: Right. When we first hung out, I dunno, six months ago or something like that.

[00:10:44] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:10:44] Nathan: You told me. Oh, when I have a question about Mighty Networks for my membership, I, I just asked Mel.

[00:10:49] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:10:49] Nathan: And then he said, but when I have a question about podcasting, I, I just ask Andrea. Yeah, yeah. Like, these are the biggest names and all it, I never thought about it that way, but I guess that's true. Yeah. So you, you notice that it's a lot of different things.

[00:11:01] Jefferson: Yeah. I notice a lot different things. So I look at it as, okay, what requires Jefferson's time?

[00:11:07] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:08] Jefferson: Um, daily content requires my time the most. Yeah. Um, that's because I don't batch it. It's daily and it's not like I can get it. I don't get my stuff from. The internet. I don't read it from a book. It's not ai, it's your life. It is my just blah Okay. Mm-hmm. Podcast. That takes my time. Mm-hmm. Uh, speaking of course, takes my time.

[00:11:31] Yep. Uh, membership. I do two Q and As do like two coaching calls in a masterclass a month. And so that is, that's as much of me time. Mm-hmm. And, and I do that live with that. Yeah. Uh, oh, one thing we could put on there is course Okay. Courses. That's like a, um, a click to buy course, you know what I mean? Like, you have a, I I could, I could take a month and say, okay, I'm gonna record a, the next conversation.

[00:12:05] Right. Video. Yeah. And the masterclass. Exactly. And you, you buy it and you have it.

[00:12:09] Nathan: Like that's, what would the difference be between that and the membership?

[00:12:12] Jefferson: Yeah. Membership is something that is recurring, uh, subscription model kind of thing where they get to have, build a community, uh, have members that share a conversation.

[00:12:21] They don't know what to do with, and other people will chime in or maybe, well, my favorite is when they have conversation wins. When they're able to say, Hey, I just had this handle of convers. I just had this conversation. Here's how I handled it. It went so well. And everybody says, great job, you know, and encourages people.

[00:12:37] Mm-hmm. And, and then they, I answer their questions live and I'll bring them live on the Zoom live on stage. And that gives a lot of value that way. Right. And then I also, in my master classes, I bring a professor from the University of Texas, the McComb School of Business, and I, people who attend that class get continuing education credit, continuing education units towards.

[00:13:02] Whatever they have. So, yep. That helps a lot of professionals of course, is something that is, you buy it once and you have the download, right. And might be 12 videos on how to be a more confident communicator or something.

[00:13:16] Nathan: Yep, that makes sense. Okay, so I'm gonna underline things that take a lot of your time and so the podcast takes your time speaking.

[00:13:24] Yeah,

[00:13:25] Jefferson: Jeff, like actual Jefferson time

[00:13:26] Nathan: on an ongoing basis. Yeah. Book was a huge amount of time, but upfront, if you like, didn't spend any time on it going forward. It would continue to do, yeah,

[00:13:33] Jefferson: no, I have to do it with podcasts promo. So promo's part of it, but yeah. Yeah, A little different

[00:13:40] Membership takes your time.

[00:13:42] Nathan: Yep. Newsletter takes your time. Or do you have that pre dialed in with the team? Dialed in with the team. Okay. Yeah. 'cause you're basically the content that you're creating in other places. Exactly.

[00:13:52] Jefferson: Then, yep. So they take uh, a, a video or a content. I already have repurpose it. I might add a little, I. Little season salt on it, add in a picture, and then they have that,

[00:14:03] Nathan: that's good to go.

[00:14:03] Fantastic. I like that. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then the law firm, how much time do you spend on, on that old

[00:14:08] Jefferson: day job? Um, it's gotten less and less now with the book coming out Right. And everything. I've been on the book tour the last four weeks, and so the law firm's probably maybe 10%, but that doesn't mean even though I'm not actually doing the technical side of handling the hearings, the mediations, uh, the depositions, I'm still managing it.

[00:14:30] Mm-hmm. So I'm being brought questions of what should we do with this issue? Or Right. Somebody's computer just died. We get like, uh, we need some AC work or whatever. It's like different little things like that. Okay. You're making decisions on, so it's, I would say it's, it does take my time, but a small percentage.

[00:14:48] Nathan: I'm just gonna say there's a 20 plus person team there. Yeah.

[00:14:51] Jefferson: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:52] Nathan: Yep. That makes sense. Okay. I like that math. Okay, so the products in the course don't exist yet. No, but these are, you know, potential next ideas.

[00:15:00] Jefferson: Yeah. So I like to kinda look at it as what, how many lines can I put in the water uhhuh, uh, and how many do I draw away from?

[00:15:09] I mean, if you look at the, the bigger creators, it's like they choose one and they push it all the way, right? So they choose the podcast, what's gonna be the best, biggest source for them, or they're Right. Uh, what they is the most creative outlet for them, and I feel like that's what they push on, and so they'll increase their speaking fee.

[00:15:29] Like right now, my speaking fee is where it's at, so I can have like a very solid foundation. Right. Um, and just get used to making sure, to me, and this is a recurring theme in my life, is does it fit my world? Mm-hmm. The same thing with my podcast. Why I started it in my car. Like I just wanna see is it gonna fit my life or not?

[00:15:48] Do I like this, do I not? Right? Same thing with the speaking. So, um, as you have a better solid footing, better foundation that will continue to grow, um, the daily content that takes the most amount of time, the membership can grow. I mean, podcasts require sponsors.

[00:16:08] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:08] Jefferson: Another thing we don't have on here is just, uh, partnerships.

[00:16:12] Okay. Like brand deals, brand spark partnerships. Yep. That's become more in conversation. Um, you know, I have lots of meetings with, let's say agents or managers who have different things in their mind of what I need to be doing, whether it's, um, a docuseries, it's a show on Netflix, it's, uh, you ought to do.

[00:16:36] This with. Mm-hmm. You know, so like, um, you know how like Andrew Erman has like his, um, it's like roca their glasses, like the color glasses, right? Like, okay, I can have something like that where I partner with a brand to help promote a, a product. Yeah.

[00:16:54] Nathan: That makes sense. Okay, let's set this aside for a second.

[00:16:56] Okay. And what I wanna most know is what are we optimizing for if we go forward two years from now? Yeah. Let's, let's double the amount of time you spent as a creator. Mm-hmm. You know, four, four or five years. What is, like, what's the thing that you want most? Are we talking revenue? Uh, obviously this is gonna be a factor of things, right?

[00:17:17] Sure.

[00:17:18] Jefferson: I am optimizing for a very healthy balance at home. Okay. So I am definitely the type that I would much rather have more time with my kids. Like my goal, if you were to ask me, Jefferson, what's your goal? It's, I could show my kids the world. Mm-hmm. Like, I never really traveled growing up. Okay. At all.

[00:17:39] I travel now more than I ever have in my entire life. My kids five and seven already travel Right. More than I did until the age of like 24. Yeah. So, um, I wanna, I wanna see the world and I want to show it to them too. I wanna take them with me. So that, that to me is like a lifelong goal and dream. Um, and I feel like I'm, I'm doing that.

[00:18:01] So I'm, I'm going to London mm-hmm. Here in a few weeks for the book tour. Uh, and I'm taking the whole family. So really excited about that. I think I'll be going to Australia in the fall and take the family to do the, if we survive the flight, um. Yeah. So it's optimizing for a lot of balance. You say, okay, you wanna put a number on that?

[00:18:25] I mean, if, if I can, a million dollars a, a year is an incredible number for anybody. It's more of how do I make this work without me having to give so much of my time to it? 'cause the day is just like, all of a sudden it's, yep, it's time to pick up the kids. It's time to take my son to juujitsu, time to take my daughter to dance.

[00:18:49] You got t-ball, practice bath. You gotta find a way to eat, uh, feed them, and then it's bedtime. And then you, you're zonked. It's eight 30 and you're ready to do, you're like, it's, it's seven. I'm just, yeah, I'm, I'm crashing. I'm physically crashing. And so how do I make the most out of, I dropped, we dropped them off by 8:00 AM and then picked them up at four.

[00:19:13] Like, that's. That's my time's. The window. That's the window. That's all I got right there. It's like, what do I do within those, what is that, eight hours? Mm-hmm. So how do I make the most out of that? A lot of it is this stuff.

[00:19:27] Nathan: The daily content in the podcast.

[00:19:28] Jefferson: Yeah. That, that's a lot of my stuff. You know how there's some creators who they go, Hey, I, I post all of my thoughts on Twitter, whatever does, well, that's what we're gonna turn into a reel.

[00:19:39] We're gonna break that up and use each thread as a whatever. And you can like optimize that whole system. Exactly. And, um, they already know what they're gonna say and blah, blah, blah, blah. That's just not how I've, I've ever been able to, to do it. I've never batched any of my content. I probably should. I, I, in terms of You wanna talk about more of the balance?

[00:19:58] There should probably be a day that all I do is make content just whip out. I don't know, 10 of these videos that I make a day and, and, and do that. And that way that would at least free up. Right? Because here's what happens is by three o'clock, two o'clock, all I'm thinking about is the video. What am I gonna make a video?

[00:20:21] What am I making? Oh, so it might even be

[00:20:22] Nathan: hard to be present in some of Exactly. In that tail end of Exactly.

[00:20:26] Jefferson: So I even have it to where after two o'clock don't text me, because I am trying at that moment to think how can I deliver the most amount of value Right. To the people that Why don't

[00:20:38] Nathan: we just hear, why don't you write ideas?

[00:20:41] Okay. I write ideas. Yeah. And just say ideas. And then below that, let's just in a bullet, let's say, uh, batch or batch content. Yep. I like it. Yeah. Okay. Because that, I mean, that's an interesting thing that, that would allow you to be more present and have better balance.

[00:20:58] Jefferson: There's a good side and a bad side.

[00:20:59] Mm-hmm. Bad side is it might feel a little less. Authentic, creative and authentic and spur of the moment. So you lose that spontaneity at the same time. Imagine just for two weeks, all of my videos are done. Right. Incredible. Or same for my podcasts. I mean, that would, that would take a lot of time to, because this is once a week.

[00:21:18] Yes. And of course, I mean, you just find time to do it right. And I'm, I'm just now incorporating guests. I find that a lot of my audience really prefers it just me.

[00:21:30] Nathan: Hmm.

[00:21:30] Jefferson: Uh, because they want to hear my tips. Right. On X, y, and Z. They don't want interview. Like, I brought

[00:21:34] Nathan: in the gr the biggest expert on this, and I'm like, whatever.

[00:21:36] Exactly. They're like,

[00:21:38] Jefferson: we're here for communication advice. What do you got? Um, and I mean, but it's, everybody takes a little bit of Yeah. Everything. So, um, yeah. That's, if we're looking for less time that uses less of Jefferson time batching is definitely something. I think

[00:21:53] Nathan: it's, I think it's worth trying.

[00:21:55] Um. It might not be something that you stick with or you might find that the batching, the podcast works really well and batching the daily content mm-hmm. Is a terrible idea. But we won't,

[00:22:04] Jefferson: yeah. We won't know until we try it. Right. That's fair. That's fair. What about, um, you know, speaking

[00:22:10] Nathan: Well, so what, what I liked about, you know, what we're optimizing for is speaking and travel go hand in hand because like when you're ever going to do an Australia trip and all of this, it's like, well, if I'm getting paid $50,000 to speak in Australia Yeah.

[00:22:24] Then I should definitely bring the family. Right, right, right. And like it's an excuse to do the thing that you wanted to do

[00:22:30] Jefferson: anyway.

[00:22:31] Nathan: Yeah, yeah.

[00:22:32] Jefferson: Like the, it's a,

[00:22:32] Nathan: that matches really well.

[00:22:34] Jefferson: I agree. Um, and you go, okay, I know that as I like, this is me just starting out in the last year, so as I continue to do it, that will continue to grow.

[00:22:45] Your fee will go up. Mm-hmm. I mean, that's the, that's the argument at least. And then you can be much more selective of when you do it like. Our friends that we know, we talk about how much they charge, which is in the six figures range. Yeah. It's not like they're speaking every week.

[00:23:02] Nathan: No.

[00:23:02] Jefferson: It's like, it's much, much shorter.

[00:23:04] It might be three a year, you know what I mean? But it's, uh,

[00:23:07] Nathan: or they're saying, this is now where the bar is at, and, and they're just like, look, this is what it takes to get me there, to get, to get me on a plane. And, and it's not anything about like, I think I'm better than you or anything. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like he, you know, here's my world.

[00:23:19] Yeah. And, you know, I'm doing one a month or, or three a month and, you know, it's $50,000 minimum.

[00:23:25] Jefferson: Yeah. And, uh, you know, one part of this I also wanna highlight, I mean, I'm, I'm married mm-hmm. To, alright. Incredibly smart woman who's much smarter than me and she's also an attorney and, and, and wonderful in her own, uh, right.

[00:23:41] And so she also has the balance of her work world. Right. And kid world. And how do you balance that and does she. Take, you know, does she step back away from her law practice to help with the kids or help with this? And it's like, the more money, you know, we're able to, um, able to supplant her right income, but at the same time she actually likes doing it.

[00:24:02] So we're having all that same conversation. So I, I bring that up to say, ain't nobody got it all figured out. Like we're just, we're Yeah.

[00:24:10] Nathan: You know what I mean? We're, we're still just working this, I guess. Yeah. That's how I feel on so much of this. Yeah. I wanna go back to the money side of it Okay. Of like, what we're optimizing for.

[00:24:17] Because if the goal was a million a year, not top line revenue, but a million take home Yeah. Right after the team and Yes. All these other costs, we could actually simplify this quite a bit. Right. And get to a million really daily content and the membership.

[00:24:32] Jefferson: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:32] Nathan: Those two things by themselves. You could, you could do a million a year just off of that pretty easily.

[00:24:39] Right. Because you have such high numbers. Uh. And so if the goal was a million a year, we can actually simplify like crazy.

[00:24:48] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:24:48] Nathan: If the goal was 10 million a

[00:24:49] Jefferson: year, let's make it harder. Let's just, let's try it. Let's try it. I mean, I'm, I, I, I don't even, um, those numbers just seem so foreign to me. So like Yeah.

[00:25:01] If you go, okay, if you, what does 10 million year look like? Lord? I don't know. So I don't even know how I, how I would even get there. What I find, I just find so much fun. Mm-hmm. Out of this, like, I find so much creative of being able to. Uh, play with it. I like the branding. That's what I like. Nathan. I like the branding element.

[00:25:23] I'm less about the details. Okay. And I think you already have picked up on this about me. I asked you a number and you're like, I don't know,

[00:25:31] Nathan: man. Exactly.

[00:25:31] Jefferson: So it's like, how many, I don't know. What else is fun that like, in this world where you're just like, oh, this lights me up when I spend time on it?

[00:25:38] Ooh.

[00:25:39] Um, anytime I'm thinking of, um, like, when I think of products creating something, I, I get a lot of joy out of that. I had a lot of fun, um, kind of creating what the book was going to look like, uh, you know, feel of the membership. I, I liked a lot of, I like graphic design. I like, I like, um, anything that kind of has an artistic mm-hmm.

[00:26:04] Flare to it. I like making videos. I mean, that's, that's my. That's my wheelhouse where I just like feeling like I'm, I'm creating.

[00:26:13] Nathan: Okay. I think what might be interesting is to map this out and say, what would this look like at 1 million, 5 million and 10 million? Okay. In revenue. Like, this is a thought exercise.

[00:26:24] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:26:25] Nathan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, so

[00:26:27] Jefferson: yeah, as long as everybody understands, I don't have anywhere close to that. Yeah, that sounds great.

[00:26:31] Nathan: Let's write it down

[00:26:32] Jefferson: though. Yeah. But I

[00:26:32] mean, so

[00:26:33] if

[00:26:34] Nathan: we, like, 'cause you're saying, let, let's make this hard. Let's make this, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Let's play with it. And so in this,

[00:26:41] Jefferson: if I, if I, if I say Nathan, yeah.

[00:26:44] I wanna build a communication empire. Okay. Like, that could be fun. That just sounds fun. That sounds like a fun thing to say. I

[00:26:51] Nathan: think that's, that's the 10 million. Yeah. Right, because it's, and then it's scaling from there.

[00:26:55] Jefferson: Right.

[00:26:56] Nathan: Uh, so let's start at either end. So the one, or start at, uh, at the, the two streams go barbell right here.

[00:27:03] The, the two ends, the 1 million I think. You can simplify. Uh, so here we can go simple. Uh, and you know, I, I think it's like, we'll say daily for the daily content and the membership. So this is, is a million a year. I've seen it a hundred times. You've seen it, yeah. Yeah. Tons of creators and, and it's just, it's very, very clear and you're almost there.

[00:27:31] Mm-hmm. Right. You, you can see, you could trend this forward and that's even probably before you bring the book into it. Right. And really, if you stopped speaking that you're there, I think you just haven't had these out for long enough to feel

[00:27:47] Jefferson: Yeah. Like you're there. Or that I've, I've been able to put as much focus.

[00:27:52] Right. It's hard to be. Looking at all of this because where's my head at? Mm-hmm. There, the daily content. Yeah. That's, that's what eats up the eight

[00:28:01] Nathan: hours of my day. But if you could, I mean, there's a world of a million dollars a year mm-hmm. Where you're spending 40 minutes a day making the daily content.

[00:28:09] Mm-hmm. And you're spending, let's say a total of six hours a month mm-hmm. On the membership. 'cause you're planning things. Yeah. Yeah. You're teaching live and all of that. And we're like, okay, we're 30, I don't know, 30 hours. 20, 30 hours a month.

[00:28:24] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:28:24] Nathan: Total.

[00:28:25] Jefferson: Mm-hmm.

[00:28:26] Nathan: Uh, 50 hours a month maybe if we're getting crazy and like, that's all it would take.

[00:28:30] You would have to say no to additional products.

[00:28:33] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:28:34] Nathan: Um, there might be occasionally things you're like, oh, the AI thing is cool. Let's layer that on a little bit. Right. Maybe once a year you're toying with one of these other things. Right. Uh, one thing. When I was building Kit, I first did a, like, uh, the whole, I was in the creative world.

[00:28:51] Mm-hmm. So I was doing, uh, creating books and courses on product design. Mm-hmm. And so in 2013, I got to 250,000 a year in revenue off, off of that. And then I like set that aside, went all in and building kit and it took me five years to again, make 250,000 a year.

[00:29:08] Jefferson: Mm-hmm.

[00:29:09] Nathan: And then it had accelerated so much.

[00:29:11] Right. Kit was making

[00:29:12] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:29:12] Nathan: You know, $5 million a year, 10 20 up from there. But it was interesting, like, because it was growing so fast, my personal income was really lagging mm-hmm. Behind it. And I think some of that is what's happening here mm-hmm. Where so many of these numbers. Are brand new. Yes. And so it's like they actually trend out to a million dollars a year.

[00:29:35] Uh, they just, they've only been going for two months, or

[00:29:37] Jefferson: they don't Yeah, yeah. I say they haven't now, you know, like I can promise you the Yeah.

[00:29:41] Nathan: The money is not in the bank account yet. Yeah, exactly. But, but if we just pay it forward. Mm-hmm. So all that's to say, I think a million dollars a year is very clear and relatively easy.

[00:29:50] And any reactions or disagreements to that?

[00:29:52] Jefferson: No, I, I, that actually it's, uh, in some way a relief to know mm-hmm. Of just simply the content that I put out. Even you could say the podcast. Yeah. Because I really spend about 15 minutes a week, 20 minutes a week on a podcast, and then showing up in the membership that could lead to just as simple as I, I could do no speaking right.

[00:30:14] If I wanted, or none of this other stuff, and not worry about any of it. And still do something like that eventually.

[00:30:22] Nathan: Right. There's a world where you could say. Um, you know, I want to, uh, my wife's career is really taking off. I want her to focus on that. Mm-hmm. And us collectively to focus on the kids.

[00:30:34] Mm-hmm. And so I'm going to make a really meaningful amount of money mm-hmm. In the least amount of time possible. Mm-hmm. Only focusing on the parts that I love. Right. Uh, and that's one option. Now the thing is, I think that you're such a person who's like me and you're like, oh, but I want to make new products.

[00:30:52] I want new things to brand. I want,

[00:30:54] Jefferson: yeah.

[00:30:54] Nathan: I wanna learn and try and all that.

[00:30:56] Jefferson: Yes. My personality is definitely, I, I don't feel like I'm useful if I'm not running. Like I need, I like to have a goal. I like to be chase after something that gets hundred percent interest. And that's how I feel. We're probably like, type threes on the Enneagram is my guess.

[00:31:10] Like, I'm always having a go now. I, I do wanna say, mind you, the eight hours that I have, which is, I've never actually put it in that term. I have eight to four to really get something done is, right now I'm full of podcasts. Uh, that I am on promoting the book. Right. Um, which is all good because this, it feeds all of this stuff.

[00:31:32] Mm-hmm. And so that takes up time. Then I have meetings. I have a very, very, very, very, very small team, like less than two people, um, meeting on where the fires are, what's going on. I'm getting asked about, do you wanna go to that speaking engagement or whatever. And um, and then by the time we're doing daily content, so that's, I want you at least have an insight of that's what my eight hours a day looks like, where that time is going.

[00:31:55] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:56] Nathan: So as we go to trying on a crazy idea of 10 million a year, and we start to brainstorm what that would be, the first thing I want you to know is like, do it from the place of security knowing that you've already done this. It just hasn't played out yet.

[00:32:12] Jefferson: So we, like you, you're talking about like, to me in the present right now for you in the present.

[00:32:15] Okay. Okay.

[00:32:15] Nathan: Right. And so it's not like. Uh, basically you have this amazing foundation that you can build on. Mm-hmm. And in a very risk-free mm-hmm. Way. So now with that, let's go to the 10 million.

[00:32:27] Jefferson: Okay.

[00:32:27] Nathan: And if we wanna make $10 million a year,

[00:32:30] Jefferson: how do we do it? Uh, well, speaking fee could go up or just do way more speaking fees or more speaking engagements.

[00:32:38] Nathan: Well, you can't do way more because you gotta keep the balance. So the fee has to increase.

[00:32:43] Jefferson: Oh, okay. I hear you. So we're saying how do you reach that while still these? Oh yeah.

[00:32:47] Nathan: Okay. Oh yeah. Okay. Okay, okay. Okay. This has to be $10 million and Jefferson is showing up thoroughly enjoying life challenged in the right ways.

[00:32:56] That's possible. Oh, okay. That sounds great. So why don't you write down, um, uh, 50 k minimum speaking, or do, or do we have to go higher than that?

[00:33:08] Jefferson: Uh, ideally, let's

[00:33:10] Nathan: just say a hundred K, a hundred K. Let's just speaking, let's just, Jefferson doesn't, let's keep that right now. A hundred percent Jefferson doesn't get on a plane for less than a hundred K if only.

[00:33:21] But we know, like sometimes we say these things like, okay, that would be amazing, or that's farfetched uhhuh. But you and I both know a lot of people who don't really have bigger followings than you. In fact, many of them have the same size or smaller followings. Significantly less. Yeah. Who this is a hundred percent true for.

[00:33:39] Yeah. And they're at a hundred and twenty five, a hundred fifty, two hundred K.

[00:33:42] Jefferson: Yeah. But they've had, they're on their fifth book. They've had, you know, however many masterminds they've been in this space. Right. But did

[00:33:50] Nathan: their first book sell 200,000 copies in the first four weeks? No, probably not. No.

[00:33:53] Jefferson: No. So

[00:33:54] Nathan: like, yeah, this is the level that we're flying on.

[00:33:56] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:33:56] Nathan: Okay. So versus speaking, it has to be a hundred KI

[00:33:59] Jefferson: should have written that bigger.

[00:33:59] Nathan: My bet. You're good. People know what it is. Um, uh, if we're doing three per month, we're making 300 k. Let's say for a hundred K it has to drop down to two, let's say in the supply and demand balance or one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:34:14] Um, okay, let's just even, uh, let's say averaging like one and a half a month. Mm-hmm. So now we're 1.5 million a year mm-hmm. In speaking revenue. Mm-hmm. You got an agent some of that has to go to Correct. I'm thinking math. Let's say you're doing two a month and, uh, a hundred KA piece after the agent, roughly a million.

[00:34:35] A million for the year. What's the agent fee? People are gonna be curious there? Uh, any agent's gonna say about 20%? About 20%. I think you could say you could, you could be at a, uh, your take. Mm-hmm. Being 1.5 million a year from speaking.

[00:34:49] Jefferson: Okay. I'm just about 1.5.

[00:34:51] Nathan: Yep. I like that. We're 15% of the way to the goal right now.

[00:34:55] You know, we're making progress. Love it. I love it. Okay. What do you think the next leverage point to focus on, um, podcast

[00:35:05] Jefferson: sponsors? Okay. Sponsors, um, can do really well. Mm-hmm. I mean, that's how your bigger creators are making a lot of money on podcasts. But the thing is, what they do is they sell themselves to a network.

[00:35:17] Nathan: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:18] Jefferson: And whether it's iHeart Media, Spotify, whatever, and their episodes have to be 45 minutes and at least four sponsor spots. Right. And that's why they buy the podcast for X amount of million guarantee that money. So we could,

[00:35:35] Nathan: I mean, we know people who are making $5 million a year plus just on podcast sponsors.

[00:35:39] Just

[00:35:40] Jefferson: it, that that's exactly right.

[00:35:41] Nathan: Yeah. And their, their show is more popular for sure. But like,

[00:35:44] Jefferson: we can play this for Yeah. Well they started it in 2011. You know what I mean? Like Yeah. I think that's absolutely. Um, so in terms of. If you're looking for a lot of places to make more money, podcasts is a big space.

[00:35:59] Nathan: What would have to be true to make a million dollars a year off of your podcast?

[00:36:04] Jefferson: Um, well, let's look at, I right now. I do one podcast a week. Mm-hmm. So how, how much money would I have to make in sponsorships per episode?

[00:36:14] Nathan: So you have to make $20,000. Yeah. My thing is worse, not numbers saying that that's, yeah.

[00:36:19] Yeah. $20,000 per episode in sponsorships. Correct. Uh, if you want multiple sponsors per episode, you'd have to go longer than 15 minutes for sure. Probably. Mm-hmm. You know, you know, if you're at two Yeah. But, but $20,000 per episode, uh, I don't know the numbers on CPMs and all of that to know how many views we'd have to do.

[00:36:40] Mm. About what I'm doing. Okay. You think you could do 20,000 an episode now?

[00:36:45] Jefferson: Probably, um, yeah. 'cause that's still a really high number. Um, and, but the whole, the thing is when you add more podcast sponsors, it takes a num it takes the down the average. Down down. Yeah. Yeah. Because they're like, I don't wanna hear all these sponsors.

[00:37:01] Right. Or I could sell my podcast to a network for a year mm-hmm. Under a million dollar contract or something like that. Right.

[00:37:12] Nathan: Okay. So it feels like there's a pretty clear path to a million dollars a year from the podcast. Yeah.

[00:37:16] Jefferson: Well, if we're looking at this crazy number mm-hmm. That the podcast could be a big,

[00:37:22] Nathan: the one thing that I'm wondering is first, is this the, the best channel to do it?

[00:37:27] Of all the options that we have, is this the best one? Mm-hmm. The things that, that, um, tell me, yes, it is. Would be. It's tried and true. Right? Yeah. You know, there's a bunch of ways we can do it. If we talk to anyone with a high level podcast, they'd be like, yeah, of course. Mm-hmm. Uh, and, and all of that. The reason I say no, it's not the path is the best practice in this would be longer episodes and more ads.

[00:37:55] Right. And you either need your own sales team or you need to be a part of a network. Correct. So if those things are fine or you're okay with the constraint of like, yes, I'll be a part of the network, but like guys, that it's never gonna be longer than 20 minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, these

[00:38:10] Jefferson: are my constraints.

[00:38:11] Exactly. You'd have to have the parameters of the creative of what that's, that's going to, to to be. Yeah. I mean, podcast could certainly be a, a really big part of it. I mean, my, if there's a channel I need to do better on, it's YouTube because mm-hmm. My stuff is always really short. Right. And it's not until now that I'm trying to do more longer form content, but even 15 minutes can do really well on YouTube.

[00:38:33] Uh, yeah. And it has, I mean, that's why my YouTube is growing as fast as it is right now because of the long form. How many do you have on YouTube stuff? I only have like, I don't know, four, five? Uh, no, no. I have, uh, almost 600,000. That's a

[00:38:46] Nathan: giant YouTube channel. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. I thought you'd have to have a million for it to be used pretty soon.

[00:38:51] You're gonna get this play button in the mail That's like really big. You got the whole one that I got the little one? Yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm wanting. That's what I'm wanting. So, uh, so I mean, between that cha YouTube channel and uh, all that, like it's pretty clear you get to a million. Yeah. Um, so let's write that down.

[00:39:07] Let's say podcast, uh, or a million. Okay. We're a quarter of the way there now. 2.5 million out of 10.

[00:39:14] Jefferson: Now mind you, um, the AI can do well and the membership for sure, I have pushed on that membership. They're very scalable. Yeah. And I just don't know a lot about that world, Nathan. I, I, I started it in the end of January.

[00:39:32] Mm-hmm. Beginning of February. And, um, I'm still just figuring it out because we had two tiers. We're gonna push it to one tier.

[00:39:41] Nathan: Yeah. 'cause you found the churn is so much better and the engagement's so much better on the higher tier, you have

[00:39:46] Jefferson: people who are more serious. Yeah. And so my whole thought is, what's the point of doing it if they're not gonna take it seriously?

[00:39:51] I, I want people that are gonna show up to class that I'm truly investing it in. So I, I take it very serious. Uh, what

[00:39:57] Nathan: was the price point, uh, on the two tiers and then what are you consolidating to?

[00:40:00] Jefferson: Yeah, so it was 97 for of course. And this is all the advice of other people who know more than me. Yeah. Um, the 97 for the pro 37 for the core.

[00:40:10] Mm-hmm. And it's like a thousand dollars a year for the pro. Okay. That's been the number one buyer right there. Mm-hmm. 'cause it's just like a quick, and they're done for the year, and we're going to change it all to just one. One tier and that's Yeah. The, the pro tier. Okay. Meaning the log classes,

[00:40:29] Nathan: that's what people are really after.

[00:40:30] Do you know people, so this is already on track for a million a year for the membership. Mm-hmm. Close to it. Uh, do you know people who have memberships that are doing say, 3 million plus?

[00:40:42] If they are, I don't know them. Okay. I mean, I haven't talked to 'em about it. This is one of the reasons that I love doing, uh, this type of business breakdown.

[00:40:49] Oh, yeah.

[00:40:50] Jefferson: I guess I know I, yes, I do know somebody. Okay. But she's on a different, she has her own custom platform. Okay. That's what she does. That I, I don't know how much she makes. Mm-hmm. But I know she has a huge number of, of followers. You're always doing, you know, they'll say

[00:41:06] Nathan: something like, oh yeah, join our 10,000 members, and you're like, 10,000, $50 a month,

[00:41:10] Jefferson: you know, I'm always doing.

[00:41:11] Exactly. And I always wonder how much they're overstating it. You know? I don't, you never know. You,

[00:41:15] Nathan: you never know. Yeah. So this is one of the reasons I love doing this podcast and the breakdowns in this way. Because often we come across things where another creator is like, wait a second, that's possible.

[00:41:25] Mm-hmm. I didn't know that. Mm-hmm. So I've done a bunch of these breakdowns and I, I know a lot of people that are making 1.5 to $3 million a year off of their membership. Oh. And they don't have audiences as big as what are they doing? Oh yeah, that's fine. Right. They, they've run it for longer. Yeah. They have really good conversion flows from their newsletter to their membership where the, the automations that they have in the newsletter where they're drawing people in and delivering great content.

[00:41:56] Mm-hmm. But then they're saying, Hey, you know, would you like to learn more about this? Click this link if you're interested. And it takes them down a separate flow and really talks about the pain points and the membership solves and then gets them to, to buy. And so then you constantly have leads coming in, and then people going to the newsletter and then getting promoted.

[00:42:17] The membership. On autopilot and it's all in a very value driven, how do I help you? Mm-hmm. Right? Because you know, your daily content helps them, you know, your newsletter, there's long form stuff that you can write helps them and you know that your membership helps them. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And being community with other people is going to help.

[00:42:35] Mm-hmm. And so when you have that, that automation flow can really drive a lot of sales on autopilot.

[00:42:43] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:42:43] Nathan: Do you have anything like that? Now? Is there anything automated from the newsletter to the promoting the membership? No. Okay. So let's write that down as, uh, an idea. Automations, uh, yeah, let's go automations because then when we're thinking about, you know, everything underlined of what takes Jefferson's time, newsletter's not underlined.

[00:43:01] And we love that. Right? 'cause you have a great system for it. Yes. Yeah. And so with automations, you can have the newsletter driving a lot of revenue for the membership, right? Where you're gonna spend some one time effort to get that set up, but then it's gonna work for you, right? So this is, you're gonna spend 10 hours with your team.

[00:43:18] You're doing a deep dive. Mm-hmm. You know, you're gonna bring in someone, a consultant to help you do it. Then it'll just work for you and it'll fit with your balance and everything else. Awesome. I'll just set up a meeting with somebody, a kit. A hundred percent. This is what we'll do's, what I'm gonna do.

[00:43:33] We'll show you the blueprints of like, this, what, here's how other people do it. Yep. Here's exactly how I'd pitch it. Here's the follow ups,

[00:43:39] Jefferson: the, um, ai. I have no clue. Um, I, I don't even know what numbers I have right now, um, but I do know it's very popular, which is great. Mm-hmm. I have not looked at any numbers.

[00:43:50] Another big driver could be a course. Yeah. Before we go to the course, let's put a number down

[00:43:55] Nathan: for the membership.

[00:43:55] Jefferson: Oh, okay.

[00:43:56] Nathan: So I believe that with the audience sizes that you have mm-hmm. And the price point. The other thing is, I like your price point on the membership. Mm-hmm. That it's more expensive. You know, you're not doing a, like these $9 a month memberships.

[00:44:09] No. It's just

[00:44:09] Jefferson: like, don't waste any time with us. Yeah. Well also, like I'm, I'm an attorney. Like I'm, what I'm teaching you is like legit stuff. It's not like I'm teaching you basket weaving.

[00:44:17] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:44:17] Jefferson: Which is also legit. So, okay. Just to be clear, it just doesn't make money.

[00:44:22] Nathan: It usually different, you know, so I think you should write down 2.5 million Okay.

[00:44:26] For the membership. And I say that because of the progress we already have, the audience size that you have. Mm-hmm. And then what we've seen in the community. Right. The examples that I've seen firsthand Yeah. Of putting up those numbers on much smaller audiences. Well,

[00:44:43] Jefferson: it's, and it's very helpful for me to know too of, um, like I can make this what a five year plan.

[00:44:50] Mm-hmm. Like it's all things don't have to happen right now. Yep. Because you're probably like me. Like I have the urge for it to be done tomorrow. Uh, instead, uh, how'd you know, you know, play. Plan this out a little bit. Plan this out a little bit. Yeah, we got time. Yeah.

[00:45:06] Nathan: Okay. So you were talking about the ai.

[00:45:09] I don't know enough about it. You don't know enough about it. We're not gonna speculate on what it could be. Yeah. Who's, but it's this thing that's out there and, uh, it's not losing me money. Exactly. Yeah. You see where it goes. Um, it could be a good cross sell. It could be. Maybe the AI is good at helping you sell into the membership as well.

[00:45:27] Right. The team at Delphi knows what they're doing Yeah. And all of that. And so it could be another really good source.

[00:45:34] Jefferson: Yeah. I'm working with, um, them to, um, have like this, I'm gonna put it on my Instagram where they can text it Uhhuh and then on like five free texts. Then it'll say, Hey, you can each have AI or if you like in free classes, go to my membership.

[00:45:51] Yeah. I try to build it that way. But yeah, this, these are all things pointing to the membership. I'm with you and the book does. So that's all good stuff.

[00:45:59] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, when I just finished listening to the book on Audible, right at the end it says, Hey, if you want to take this a little further, you like that, you know, you can join the membership.

[00:46:07] I think Nathan will like that. And so you're gonna keep going from there. Uh, I mean, a lot of things point to the membership. One thing I'll say, and this is a little bit different of model, but I had Dan Martel on the podcast. Mm-hmm. And he, uh, is a software founder who has had a few exits, uh, done a lot of things, and he's gone all in on content.

[00:46:27] That's cool. And his business model is a membership and group coaching. So he's now, he's at a higher price point. Mm-hmm. He's like five to $7,000 a year to join versus the 1000 a year. Mm-hmm. But he is doing seven to $10 million a year from what I can see from public numbers. Mm-hmm. Off of just his group coaching program.

[00:46:47] Mm-hmm. And it is entirely sold through or. 80% sold through Instagram dms, which is pretty wild. What, how does that happen? So he has conversations with, so with people. Mm-hmm. And he'll just say like, uh, hey, what are you working on? You know? Mm-hmm. And they'll talk about what goals do you have and that sort of thing.

[00:47:07] And if it's a fit, he'll talk to 'em and say like, Hey, I have this program, like a ways into it. Mm-hmm. Um, and then if you're interested, sign up. Here's what it looks like. And a lot of people will join. He actually has a whole inside sales team.

[00:47:21] Jefferson: I was to say, I was like, there's no way. He is. Like, you'd have to have a ton of people.

[00:47:24] Nathan: Ah,

[00:47:25] Jefferson: I think the whole inside sales team is three people. I would need a lot more. Like, that's a lot. That's, I, I get, I get about 2,500 to 3000 dms like a day. Like there's no, there's no, you know that story I I showed you a minute ago? Yeah. I got like 400,000 views on my story. Like that. I, there's no possible way I could, I could do that.

[00:47:50] Is there? Yeah, I'm gonna say 2000. Yeah. At least

[00:47:55] Nathan: that is wild.

[00:47:56] Jefferson: Yeah. I can't, yeah. I can't

[00:47:57] Nathan: manage it. So you could, if you wanted this membership to be the only thing mm-hmm. And you wanted to, uh, figure out ways to promote it through the dms again, only in a way or to the right people, all of that, you could blow this past the 2.5 million.

[00:48:16] You could easily hit 5 million if you got a really good sales system. Now, I don't know that you wanna do that,

[00:48:21] Jefferson: and I don't know, as soon as you said sales system, my brain just turns to static. So,

[00:48:27] Nathan: because it's not quite as like this is putting a team on it. Yeah. But I think that it is one of those things that I wanna plant the seed so you know it's available.

[00:48:34] Yes. Because I feel like part of my job in our friendship, right, is to just like give you these little windows into these other Yeah. Business models and all that. So you can look at that and go, oh, that's fascinating. Not for me. Right. Or that's fascinating. It's not for me now. Mm-hmm. But then later you'll think about it, and I imagine a month from now you'll have a day where you get 4,000 dms in a day and you'll be like, all right, it's time to do something with this.

[00:49:01] Jefferson: Yeah. And see, this is, and truthfully too, Nathan, what I, when like, this kind of stuff is what, like, gets you going. Mm-hmm. Right? You love this kind of stuff. This stuff just looks draining to me. Like, I, I like this stuff. The daily content, that stuff and the podcast. That's the stuff that I, like, if I could just hire someone mm-hmm.

[00:49:25] To go, Hey, do all this, uh, that's what I, that's what I need.

[00:49:31] Nathan: Yeah. Well, uh, the good news is there's a lot of amazing people out there. Who want to work for content creators who are having an impact in the world. There we go. We've already established that you're having an impact in the world.

[00:49:43] Jefferson: I thought you were about to tell me, uh, you're rolling out Kit Platinum and we started doing this, doing this for you, doing

[00:49:50] Nathan: this live right here.

[00:49:52] Jefferson: Yeah. I wish, um, yeah. Well I definitely could see how, um, pushing the, like what you're telling me with your friend, the using the dms, pushing the membership can increase that significantly.

[00:50:05] Nathan: Because if you think about it, I mean these are totally made up numbers, but let's say you sold an additional hundred memberships a day.

[00:50:14] Mm-hmm. 2000 converting to a hundred, that's not that much of a conversion rate. And then we're talking, we're making an extra $10,000 of annual recurring revenue. Yeah. Every single day in the membership. And there's gonna be churn, there's gonna be all of those things. Mm-hmm. But. That's a crazy amount. So if you had a hundred people from your dms mm-hmm.

[00:50:39] Buying the membership, 10,000 a day worth, 3.6 million in annual revenue. Mm-hmm. Driven from Instagram dms to the membership. Mm-hmm. Like, nothing about that

[00:50:53] Jefferson: is, is crazy.

[00:50:55] Nathan: Like we, I'd have to, the content, very low conversary

[00:50:57] Jefferson: content. I'd have to make the content. I mean, like they, these dms come from stories, uhhuh, they come from something.

[00:51:02] You're making the stories anyway. I know, that's what I mean. And so like, as long as I, I have to make a story that I. Converts that pushes people to that in some way. It's not, it, I'm not saying it's not doable, I'm just saying that that requires some time for me to Yeah. Sell that aspect to them.

[00:51:20] Nathan: Yeah. You need a good system for that.

[00:51:21] Yep. Similar to how we need the, the system for automating from the newsletter.

[00:51:25] Jefferson: Mm-hmm.

[00:51:25] Nathan: Uh, that we, you know, we can build that using Dan Martel as an example again. Yeah. Because I get to watch the system that he has every Wednesday. He has a series of stories that he posts about his group coaching program, and all it is mm-hmm.

[00:51:41] Is he has usually three of his, uh, students members post, like they're just sharing a video of the impact that Oh, that's cool. That they had, like, that the program had on them. Mm-hmm. I joined, this is the problem that I was trying to solve. Dan helped me unlock it in this way. Here's the impact that I had.

[00:51:59] And so we know from your membership. Right. People are already sharing stories mm-hmm. Of how it helped them, the conversation they had. Right. That they're telling each other. They would love to be featured in some way. Oh, I'm sure. If, so, if you were like, Hey, send me a 32nd video mm-hmm. Explaining this, the impact that it had.

[00:52:18] And then every Wednesday, every Friday, whatever day you choose, you're going to say, Hey, I have this membership. Mm-hmm. And, uh, it has a big impact on people. It's my favorite thing. 'cause I get to hear the stories back of the impact. Mm-hmm. Uh, the next three stories that I'm gonna show are just from this week's thing, if you're interested, d uh, DM me the word membership and I'll send you the link to join.

[00:52:39] Jefferson: Right.

[00:52:40] Nathan: And then you're going to have those three stories go next, the last, that story story, dedicating it to a day. I

[00:52:46] Jefferson: do like that.

[00:52:46] Nathan: Yeah. And then you and your, your followers understand, oh, this is gonna come every week.

[00:52:51] Jefferson: Yeah. Right. And then they're just, yeah.

[00:52:53] Nathan: And it, and the other thing is it's valuable content you're selling.

[00:52:57] Through

[00:52:59] Jefferson: somebody

[00:52:59] Nathan: else, through someone else coming in saying, this is why the membership was impactful. This is, and it's the kind of content that I wanna consume. Mm-hmm. Right. Because I'm hearing how they unlocked a conversation. Right. I'm with you. And so I think that, that, I think that would be really, really powerful.

[00:53:15] I like that a lot. Um, okay, two things I'm thinking about. First, we need another category. Um, I'm just gonna put this here. I'm just gonna say team. Okay. So I wrote down team, and the reason is because there's amazing people who would love to work in a business like this where they're having an impact on millions of people.

[00:53:34] Yeah. Every single day working for someone they believe in. Yeah. And you said you've got, uh, I think you said almost two people now.

[00:53:42] Jefferson: Yeah. Yeah. So I have two people that, uh, are employees. Uhhuh. One is like. My go to, uh, Mara, she's amazing. And Enthusi, does she do enthusiastic? What does she wears a lot of hats is what she does.

[00:53:53] So probably too much is what she does. She handles, she is, uh, like looking out for me and everything. So she helps with all brand management. She helps with all operations. She is helping with, uh, coordinating between me and my speaker's agent, what's on my to-do list. Right. She handles meetings that I don't have to be on.

[00:54:16] Is she like a chief of staff,

[00:54:17] Nathan: executive

[00:54:17] Jefferson: assistant? That that would be, yeah. Okay. Exactly. Yeah. If there was a way to say even a cooler title than that, I would give it. 'cause she's amazing. Okay. And then, uh, uh, somebody, uh, is, uh, her name's Kelly, who's on my team, who helps almost exclusively with the membership.

[00:54:33] Mm. And she's, uh, she's kind of the liaison between us and Mighty. Then I have somebody who helps with my graphics, somebody who, um, I use her name's Lauren Kenny. She does fantastic stuff with newsletters. Mm-hmm. So she helps there. And, uh, that's it. I guess I have, um, a guy who helps. I do have a guy who helps with landing pages and websites.

[00:54:59] He's Brennan, he's the best, but yeah. But the rest of them, everybody outside of Mara and Kelly are just contractors. Right. What role could you hire

[00:55:11] Nathan: that would unlock I. Uh, let's say doubling the growth rate of the membership. This is like a, a sales conversion type rule. This is your line.

[00:55:24] Jefferson: All right. Yeah. I like, uh, uh, Kelly who helps with the membership is solely focused on daily membership content.

[00:55:32] What's going right, what's going wrong? She's

[00:55:34] Nathan: all about making sure that once someone's inside Yes. They have an amazing experience. Exactly.

[00:55:38] Jefferson: She's a wonderful community manager. Part of that, we do have a, a manager with Mighty, but yeah. I would say, uh, Kelly's even, uh, more hands on than that.

[00:55:46] Nathan: So you need someone who, you need a head of marketing.

[00:55:49] I need somebody who's

[00:55:50] Jefferson: above that. Yeah,

[00:55:50] Nathan: yeah, yeah. I'm just gonna write down marketing here. You need to hire someone for that. And that's the first rule that I would hire. 'cause if someone's whole job and they're comped on it, right. You say your job is to take this membership from a million a year to 2.5 million a year.

[00:56:05] Mm-hmm. When you hit that, here's how, uh, the bonus that I'm gonna give you. Also here are the non-negotiables for me. Mm-hmm. This is what it means to show up on brand, you know, all those things. Right, right, right. Uh, and you're gonna hire someone who thinks in those same ways anyway. Mm-hmm. Um, but

[00:56:22] Jefferson: this is somebody who would report tomorrow,

[00:56:25] Nathan: uh, report tomorrow or to you.

[00:56:27] Okay. There, there is an option, a world for this where you hire a general manager or a CEO for this entire business. Mm-hmm. And that's where I think you told me that when you hired, was it a COO for your law firm? Yeah. Like your,

[00:56:42] Jefferson: your

[00:56:42] Nathan: world

[00:56:43] Jefferson: changed. Oh, yeah. Overnight. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It was, I went from doing everything to delegating a lot to him, and it just mm-hmm.

[00:56:50] Was a game changer. Totally. So I think that

[00:56:53] Nathan: the marketing person should report directly to you. Mm-hmm. Or you should, and that's probably where I would start. Mm-hmm. So they can learn all of that. That I'm feel like I'm getting a sense of where you're like, uh, no, not a sense of loving the point. No, no, no.

[00:57:08] I'm just trying to

[00:57:08] Jefferson: think. I, like, my mind goes to like, okay, what, how, how would that look like daily conversations is what my mind mm-hmm. My mind goes to of, of that, of, but that's, you know, I've never asked that question, Nathan. Like, um, what role do I need? I don't think I've ever asked myself that simple question of like, what, what do I have?

[00:57:26] Because we just make it work. Like Mara wears a whole lot of hats. She's somebody like me who likes to go, go, go. And we think a lot on brand wise and she's just really, really talented. So is Kelly. And, but I know that it's like we need somebody because we're just in it. Mm-hmm. Like daily in it. Um, but we don't have somebody working on the business.

[00:57:51] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:57:51] Jefferson: I am working, I am both the product and working in the business. Have you read the E-Myth? Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. So if you go back to that, that's exactly right. I mean, it's a, a great call out. I'm, I'm not only baking the pies, I am the pie. Like, like I'm, I'm not just baking the cake, I and the cake. So

[00:58:09] Nathan: under ideas, I want you to write it on team.

[00:58:10] Team. That's good. Because even one or two hires I think would change your world. Like I just think about what I was doing when I was trying to run Kit and run my personal brand.

[00:58:23] Jefferson: Yeah.

[00:58:24] Nathan: And I, you know, I was not doing it nearly as well as you're doing now. And it was, it just consumed so much time and I always saw, I knew all the potential and all that, and I, I captured like 10% of it.

[00:58:35] And then hiring Kara, who now leads marketing for, you know, my whole personal brand. She's unlocked so many things. Yeah.

[00:58:42] Jefferson: And

[00:58:42] Nathan: then I'm able to get out of

[00:58:44] Jefferson: a lot of these weeds. It's hard when I. I am the product mm-hmm. For all the videos and podcasts, because like, everybody's answer is, well just get Jefferson, make a video.

[00:58:55] Like that's, that's whole book promotion, right. That's with a membership. Or we're, uh, like that's anybody I've dealt with marketing, that's usually their plan. I have this plan, we're gonna do a video about X. And I'm like, when you say we, you mean me. Right? You don't have a mouse in your pocket. Like, you're gonna, you want me to make a video?

[00:59:12] And they're like, yes. Okay.

[00:59:13] Nathan: And that's where I think that they, they have to be focused on capturing what you already have. Mm-hmm. Like these 2000 dms a day is an insane asset. Yeah. And so I would even, they're there, marketers come in a lot of different forms. You get the, the brand marketers, someone who's gonna put together a huge campaign.

[00:59:31] You get the copywriters who are gonna nail the messaging. Mm-hmm. And then you get the conversion marketers who are really thinking about, they're watching the metrics. Mm-hmm. And they're saying, okay, what all do we have? We have this amazing top of funnel. How are we going to build the right systems to convert reliably in a way that's on brand?

[00:59:48] And so I think that conversion marketer is going to be really the right hire. And I think that your chief of staff can hire that person and like do a lot of those interviews and, and check that that's something we can talk about afterwards of like, here's what the job description should look like.

[01:00:06] Here's the type of person that you're hiring. Right. Right. And then they can run that process.

[01:00:11] Jefferson: Yeah. By the way, um, for any, so, you know, like all of this, I have like, none of this has made my family a dime. Like I, I just live on law firm stuff. This is all e everything I have, I just run it right back to feed into the mm-hmm.

[01:00:27] The whole machine, the, the business is paying for the contractors that mm-hmm. For this, the other stuff for, uh, my team, um. So that's like, it's a whole, it's, uh, but it's now I feel like it's starting to start to grow. I mean, so many of these revenue streams are brand new. Exactly. And so we're talking like two months and there's a lot of things where

[01:00:51] Nathan: you're spending money on things like a, a new website or these things that you are big upfront investments.

[01:00:56] Jefferson: Yeah.

[01:00:56] Nathan: And you don't gonna fancy camera. Yeah. You know what I mean? It takes fun. And those expenses don't continue on at the same level. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You're right. You're right. Uh, so that, that makes sense. Okay. So with the understanding the conversion mechanisms that we have mm-hmm. And the marketing hire, I think that our 2.5 million a year me membership number is too low.

[01:01:15] Jefferson: Yeah.

[01:01:16] Nathan: I would bump it to 3.5 million.

[01:01:18] Jefferson: Let's just,

[01:01:19] Nathan: let's

[01:01:19] Jefferson: just change it.

[01:01:20] Nathan: Just change the number. And the reason is because you have. The most insane pent up demand that I think every creator watching this is going. Like, he does not realize how valuable. I don't every, every piece of

[01:01:32] Jefferson: this is, that's the first thing.

[01:01:33] When you and I first met and you're like, what are you doing? I was like, uh, nope. And you're like, are you doing this? I'm like, Nope. You're like, dude, you're losing your mind right now. I could tell it was making your head explode. The things that, but

[01:01:43] Nathan: they're, they're amazing problems to have.

[01:01:45] Jefferson: Yeah.

[01:01:45] Nathan: Okay, so now

[01:01:48] Jefferson: we're looking

[01:01:48] Nathan: at

[01:01:49] Jefferson: Yes.

[01:01:49] A course. So I have a friend of mine who also does communication stuff, and he really doesn't do, he's working on a book, doesn't have a membership, but he has a course. Mm-hmm. He and I both know this guy and his course just absolutely what they call it slaves. Um, and so it's like a thousand dollars, right.

[01:02:09] Just to buy the course. And so what he does is he will go onto his dms and say, I'm doing a free masterclass, whatever, at the end of the masterclass is the pitch for this course. Mm-hmm. So he sells a whole lot of courses, so. We could certainly do that. A 12 step, whatever. I thought about doing like a two week summer, uh, thing of just pay, that's like a mini membership and I guess in a closed little thing.

[01:02:35] Or I could just do this on your own time. Here's 12 videos. But we could definitely do that. Yeah. So the

[01:02:40] Nathan: course is interesting to me and it's the most common way that creators are making money. So the course and membership, like those are, they're very similar. Like you get to similar price points. Mm-hmm.

[01:02:51] You know, maybe the 250 to $2,500 mm-hmm. Price point. Um, the membership can have challenges 'cause it has churn. Right. Um,

[01:03:00] Jefferson: you have to keep up with it.

[01:03:01] Nathan: You gotta keep up with it. The courses one time I think honestly you have, because the membership is going mm-hmm. I would really focus on making this amazing.

[01:03:10] Mm-hmm. And, uh, driving that, building the up the membership. I wouldn't touch a course for probably six months to a year. That's fair. And I think that I would, I would choose a number for the membership and I would say when we get to 2.5 million of a RR annual recurring revenue, then I'm gonna evaluate the landscape and figure out what does the course look like?

[01:03:34] How does it fit in my product ecosystem? Is it gonna be at $500 a thousand? Is it weird that I have two products at a thousand dollars? Mm-hmm. Right. Those are some of the questions that I would answer. Mm-hmm. But you're already doing the membership, it's already working well. Mm-hmm. And so I would dial in that and set that, okay.

[01:03:51] Revenue target. And so the course is something that you put on the shelf. I could easily

[01:03:56] Jefferson: do something based it on that, based on the book. Exactly. Mm-hmm.

[01:03:59] Nathan: Yep. But you already have the upsell for the book, from the book to the membership.

[01:04:03] Jefferson: Yeah.

[01:04:03] Nathan: It's already written into the book.

[01:04:05] Jefferson: Mm-hmm.

[01:04:06] Nathan: Uh, pushed that off.

[01:04:07] Yeah. Yeah. And so choose the number where we unlock that.

[01:04:11] Jefferson: Okay.

[01:04:11] Nathan: If we're at about, you know, trending towards a million a year mm-hmm. Here, let's say revisit the course at 2 million a year. Mm-hmm. Let's talk for a minute about products. The merch, the cards. Yeah. Right. All of that. Why do you

[01:04:25] Jefferson: wanna do these?

[01:04:26] Um, because I have a lot of followers who are just like, just vans. They just want something tangible that they can wear. They put on, like there's so many people at the book signings who like made sure what else, and like did their own thing. That is such a great, yeah.

[01:04:40] Nathan: Such a great sign.

[01:04:41] Jefferson: Yeah. And so there are people who just want to feel like I could create whatever, whether it's a clothing brand or whatever, encapsulate that feeling that they get.

[01:04:52] Um, cards is just a, another valuable tool. Like I have a lot of people asking for flashcards, conversation cards. Mm-hmm. I think especially the conversation cards would do really, really, really well.

[01:05:03] Nathan: So normally in this conversation, like my first thought is I'm like, don't do the products. Mm-hmm. Because you have so much potential in other places, but for two reasons, I, I think it could be good one because of the pent up demand.

[01:05:16] Mm-hmm. Like it's the, the product audience fit is so, uh, is there So Well, and then two, because you love making new products.

[01:05:25] Jefferson: Yeah. It's a lot of

[01:05:26] Nathan: fun. The last thing that we want is two years from now, you're like, man, I'm making five, $6 million a year, but this isn't very fun anymore. Like, Nathan made me focus on the things that make money, but it's a lot.

[01:05:36] Exactly. You're like, that

[01:05:37] Jefferson: was the worst trip to Bo ever. Yeah. Well, and the thing is with cards, they're, it's so much of a lighter lift when it's based on things I already have. Right. And things that I do in the membership. Mm-hmm. So part of the membership is I give a, a weekly flashcard. So the plan is to use those,

[01:05:55] Nathan: you are already making it.

[01:05:56] Jefferson: Mm-hmm. I

[01:05:57] Nathan: like that. And so I think that finding the right partner for making the cards and making the merch, who's really gonna handle it, who's not gonna put a lot on your plate, is gonna be really important.

[01:06:10] Jefferson: I agree.

[01:06:10] Nathan: Because this could turn into, it could turn into a problem. I would not make a core team higher for this.

[01:06:16] I would probably find Oh, yeah. A third party that that's their Absolutely. That's their expertise knows what they're doing. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I agree. Uh, we can talk offline. There are two people that come to mind that Okay. That do that, and I'm sure you have plenty of other connections going back to the team, I think that you need a, you need another hire.

[01:06:38] Mm-hmm. I'm just trying to decide which it is. I think your chief of staff is playing two roles right now.

[01:06:44] Jefferson: Or, or at a minimum. At a minimum,

[01:06:46] Nathan: but like at a, at a high level, they're running the entire operation and they're your assistant.

[01:06:53] Jefferson: Yeah, that's pretty much what it is. Yeah.

[01:06:54] Nathan: And so you need to split those.

[01:06:56] So either this person is promoted to running your entire system. Mm-hmm. And you hire an amazing executive assistant who works for them and for you, or you, they continue in their role and you hire a GM or a COO or someone like that. Is that somebody

[01:07:15] Jefferson: higher

[01:07:16] Nathan: than them? Yeah, exactly. So you need to be in, like, you're asking this person to do too much, no doubt.

[01:07:22] And so you and I just dunno what to do next. And so you need to decide

[01:07:27] Jefferson: now what Exactly. Yeah. Now what, yeah.

[01:07:27] Nathan: You need to decide and have that conversation. Say, Hey, I'm asking you, you're absolutely crushing it. Mm-hmm. And you will do even better if I can give you an area to go to focus and go deeper. And so what I'm trying to decide, and let's just have an open conversation about it.

[01:07:43] Mm-hmm. Is. Would you be able to, you know, should I hire a GM for this business? Mm-hmm. Who will really take on a lot of these things and free you up to do the work that you love, whatever that is. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Or should I hire an assistant? Because that GM work is what you wanna do and what you're amazing at.

[01:08:00] And I would just talk through that. And then I would also go and interview and just have conversations with the GMs of other creator businesses to get a sense of Does the, and where do you find those? Uh, well, you text your friends Oh, okay. And say, Hey, can I spend time with your head of ops?

[01:08:18] Jefferson: Yeah. Can

[01:08:18] Nathan: I have an hour call?

[01:08:19] I think of Angus, who is the GM for Ali AB Doll's business. Right. So he's a YouTuber with, I don't know, six, 7 million followers. That's cool. Massive audience. Really successful business. Mm-hmm. And Angus runs that whole business and allows Ali to really focus on creating the content and, and all of that.

[01:08:36] So these people are out there and you can meet them really to calibrate. So this person, your chief of staff, you're calibrating. Are they the GM that's gonna take me to $10 million if I free up their time with an assistant? Mm-hmm. Or do I need to hire someone? Uh, who's that person and I get to free up this, you know, the chief of staff.

[01:08:55] Yeah. For what they really wanna do.

[01:08:57] Jefferson: My gut tells me, because, uh, she is, I, I cannot say enough good things about this human. She does not have the high level experience Yeah. Of having taken somebody there. She's just as much on this journey as I am. Yeah. Uh, you're

[01:09:13] Nathan: both could jump on the rollercoaster, but here

[01:09:15] Jefferson: we go.

[01:09:15] Exactly. And now she has experience in, um, marketing and ads, uh, digital ads, and she's just, um, uh, we, we match our brain so well on what's good for the brand, but she does not have that super high level experience of. Seeing what it looks like on the other side of the very, like Right. Premium, whatever that word is.

[01:09:38] I mean, just have seen it before. Yeah. So if my thought is hiring somebody that's even higher Yeah. That's what my gut says.

[01:09:45] Nathan: Yeah. And that's, that's worth listening to. And um,

[01:09:48] Jefferson: yeah, because if I made that her, if I made that her to be, you know, let's look at the revenue and do all the, like, she hasn't, she hasn't done it before.

[01:09:57] It's not saying she can't, uh, it would just be, um, that would be a

[01:10:01] Nathan: lot of pressure. It might be, yeah. So much pressure and such a steep learning curve that you're setting someone up to fail, which is not what you wanna do. So you have that conversation, but then I bet collectively you're to the idea of hiring a gm.

[01:10:13] You call a gm, I call him a bunch of C-E-O-C-O-O. Okay. General manager. Uh, I try to size it to like hiring a CEO or COO for a three to five person business feels weird. I. And see a GM sounds weird. Yeah. It just figure whatever sports team. Yeah,

[01:10:31] Jefferson: yeah, yeah.

[01:10:32] Nathan: Okay. You'll see, um, yeah. Chief of Staff gm. Um, a lot of those pretty commonly in the, in the creative businesses.

[01:10:41] COL.

[01:10:42] Jefferson: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, also the name of my company is Civility. That's the name of my company. Civility. Yeah. That's the name of I

[01:10:48] Nathan: like it. Yeah. I like it. I'm think, I'm think, um, okay, so we're at 6 million a year mm-hmm. In revenue that we've mapped out. I see a very clear path to that. I think like when we started this, I was, I was thinking, okay, there's such a clear path that we're, we're gonna map out all the way to 10.

[01:11:03] Mm-hmm. I actually think that doesn't make a lot of sense. That's t 'cause we don't know.

[01:11:10] Jefferson: We're so early, man.

[01:11:11] Nathan: We are, but the, the course could easily pick up a million or two, but it's not worth diving into until we really optimize the membership. I agree. The products. You know, you need that test to see. I could, I could easily see a few million dollars from products.

[01:11:28] Agree. Um, because like I have a good friend who runs a business selling journals and conversation cards and those packs, and they're doing two, $3 million and I don't make money here. You don't make any money there. And if you're spending time on the podcast mm-hmm. For sponsorships, well, guess what? If someone listens on the podcast and then later read the newsletter, they can actually click the link.

[01:11:50] Jefferson: Yeah.

[01:11:50] Nathan: In the newsletter. Get them better. So you could, you could pretty easily do another 500,000 to potentially a million off of the sponsorships there. So that last 4 million, it's gonna be a blend of more sponsorships. The ai I agree. The

[01:12:04] Jefferson: book's gonna keep selling. Honestly, that, that, uh, that number sounds a lot more comfortable.

[01:12:12] It's a lot more comfortable out of the gate. Tell me about that. Why? Uh, because it's, um, I mean, we're looking at a lot of this stuff. Is just so early. Mm-hmm. I mean, my book is barely a month. I know. Barely a month old man.

[01:12:26] Nathan: We're

[01:12:26] Jefferson: four weeks out. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, you know, I I, I have no doubt that it can get there.

[01:12:34] The, this kind of number I know is doable in my life and I know it's probably sooner than later, but mm-hmm. Un understanding that, spending the time hiring the right team. Mm-hmm. Focusing on what's gonna drive the right things for the right reasons. Yeah. I think it's gonna be awesome, man. So you, um, you're changing it all, man.

[01:12:56] Thanks Nathan. This is, yeah. This has been amazing, dude. There's three like words of warning.

[01:13:01] Nathan: That I wanna leave you with in this ready first on the team. I've seen a lot of creators hire too big too fast mm-hmm. Where they get to these revenue numbers. Right. Three, $5 million a year can absolutely support a 10, 12 person team.

[01:13:15] Mm-hmm. And I've seen that where as they hire up these big teams maybe even get to 20 people or more. Mm-hmm. The business is still profitable, it's doing well, but the stress of that ends up weighing really heavily on the creator. Mm-hmm. And so I'd encourage you to, uh, hire at least twice as many people as you have now.

[01:13:33] Mm-hmm. But like I run for as long as possible on a team of five. Oh yeah. I'm super slow to hire. Yeah. So I think, I think that's going to be, uh, just fine. The second one is really be clear about what the balance and the fun means to you. Mm-hmm. And continually look at. How am I doing on that? Am I spending the time with 'em, things I love?

[01:13:56] Did I hire someone to take off the thing that I really don't wanna do? Mm-hmm. Or did I actually hire someone to do the thing that, that was really fun and like, Hey, actually, like that's mine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, gimme that back. And then I think the last thing is to just as you think of this question of now what mm-hmm.

[01:14:13] Like, just hold it really loosely. Like, this is such a fun game that we get to play. I don't know if you were like me and you enjoyed games like Risk or Settlers of Kaan or Right. I played computer games where, you know, like age empires where you have like this world building all this stuff.

[01:14:29] Jefferson: Yeah. I played like mind sweeper and snake.

[01:14:31] Nathan: I don't know what you're talking about. That's what I played. But you get like, you get to just play. Right. And I think that people get in this world where they're like, I was a creator. Mm-hmm. And this did so well that now I've like serious business. Mm-hmm. And I go to someone else's and I see the 20 person team they have running every detail the podcast and like how this is perfect to dialed in and I have to do that.

[01:14:50] Jefferson: Yeah.

[01:14:51] Nathan: And you just don't. Yeah.

[01:14:53] Jefferson: Like I very much agree with that. I, I, um, that is for sure the point I jive the most with. If it's the moment it starts on not being fun, it's the, that's really my compass of like what I'm not doing right.

[01:15:07] Nathan: Yeah.

[01:15:07] Jefferson: Um, and where I need to go back to, but this is, um, this is awesome.

[01:15:12] So if I had to break it down, like my top takeaways of everything we've talked about is there is absolutely a place where I can optimize for the travel, to fund the balance with the family that I want to have and with my kids and a place I can absolutely be on the higher end of a very rewarding, fulfilling your good lifestyle.

[01:15:38] Uh, mind you, I live in a town that has a Chili's and two stoplights. All right. Uh, two, you. For me to understand that there's real value in this membership and condensing and pointing more things to it. And we're gonna use that word, optimize again, the funnels and optimization, um, automation to get the membership going.

[01:16:04] Focus on that. Don't, don't keep trying to do as many things. And what is really taking up my time three is the team. I just have not asked myself that question. I, my head has been, so just like we talked about the E-Myth, I am making cakes constantly that are all I do. And then, you know what, when I get hired to speak, I go out and they see me make a cake.

[01:16:26] Like it's all I feel like I'm doing. So having somebody is working on the business side of things, I think that's gonna be such a. Um, an awesome part of it, man. So this is now what I think we got a, I think, I know, we think we got a path. Do I get to take this with me?

[01:16:44] Nathan: Yeah, you can absolutely take it with you.

[01:16:45] Yeah.

[01:16:46] Jefferson: Yeah, yeah. Great. Awesome. Thanks for having me, man.

[01:16:47] Nathan: Well, uh, yeah, people should go check out the book, the next conversation. It's fantastic. I got a book. Yeah. Thanks fan. I, I've only sold 2000 copies in four weeks. No big deal. Exactly. Uh, it's, it's, uh, quite good. People should follow you on Instagram, Jefferson Fisher.

[01:16:59] Jefferson: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, they can find me Jefferson Fisher on any social media channel. All Instagram's my favorite. Um, next conversation.com or jefferson fisher.com and they can find the book wherever they like to buy books. I saw it in the, uh, in the airport. There you go. I love it. Thanks.

[01:17:15] Nathan: Well, thanks so much for coming on.

[01:17:16] Jefferson: Thanks, dude.

[01:17:17] If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search the Nathan Barry Show. Then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment. I'd love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else do you think we should have on the show? Thank you so much for listening.