The Nathan Barry Show

[00:00:00] Nathan Barry: What are you actually optimizing for in this business?

[00:00:02] Justin Moore: Fun is a huge thing. I really dislike being away from my family. Yeah. Ideally, I would like 2 million gross, 50 percent net.

[00:00:10] Nathan Barry: In today's episode, I coach a creator who's making 600, 000 per year on how to get to 2 million. Justin Moore is a leading expert in sponsorship and creative monetization.

[00:00:20] Nathan Barry: What are some of the things that are working really, really well?

[00:00:23] Justin Moore: I have a pretty compelling referral system. That has been hugely successful at growing the newsletter and getting people into the audience. I had someone share their referral link on their once, and they got 230 people to sign up.

[00:00:35] Nathan Barry: Market selection is a very important thing that creators don't talk about enough.

[00:00:39] Nathan Barry: The best way to do it is to teach a skill that makes money to people who have money.

[00:00:43] Justin Moore: I have a goal to get the book in a hundred thousand creators hands in five years. And I don't know how do that.

[00:00:50] Nathan Barry: When I'm planning and positioning a book, I always think about what's the conversation that's happening that I want the book to be recommended in.

[00:00:56] Nathan Barry: How do we build a funnel that's actually going to convert those right people? My gut feeling is

[00:01:03] Justin Moore: Oh God, this is so interesting. I guess we're gonna have to do another episode in one year after I sell 100, 000 copies in one year. But it's been great, man.

[00:01:13] Nathan Barry: Justin, I was doing research for this episode and I was looking up revenue numbers for your creator business. Like I know you're doing well as a creator, but they're just not out there. And I'm curious, why have you not really shared much?

[00:01:25] Justin Moore: You know, I've always been a bit uncomfortable having the spotlight on my own success.

[00:01:30] Justin Moore: Yeah. But I don't know. It's always felt I've had an aversion to it. And so yeah, I guess, we should probably just go into it, mainly, mainly because like I do have aspirations, both personally and professionally, and I need help. Yeah. Well, I'm excited

[00:01:46] Nathan Barry: to dive into

[00:01:46] Justin Moore: it.

[00:01:47] Nathan Barry: Do you feel uncomfortable?

[00:01:47] Nathan Barry: Now that

[00:01:48] Justin Moore: you, I

[00:01:48] Nathan Barry: mean, you have a literal spotlight,

[00:01:52] Justin Moore: no, because honestly I think growth will help more people. And so I think that's a positive thing.

[00:01:57] Nathan Barry: So. Before we jump up to the board, give the high level, like what is

[00:02:02] Justin Moore: it that you teach? So I call myself a sponsorship coach. So my tagline is that I help you find and negotiate your dream partnerships so that you stop leaving thousands on the table.

[00:02:13] Justin Moore: and that came for, this is like a, a pretty new model, I think, because, You know, the, the old model, I guess, if you're like an influencer is to get a talent manager, right? Right. Someone who will go out there, find you business and basically take a cut 20%. Let's say it creates a lot of perverse incentives, I think.

[00:02:29] Justin Moore: And so when I decided to start educating creators, I was like, maybe there's a new model here where it's basically fee only. It's like you pay a flat amount. Either you learn from me in a course, which is just one time only thing, or with coaching, it's like you pay a flat amount every month and we advise you completely unbiased.

[00:02:48] Justin Moore: We will also tell you not to, like, not to take this deal because it's crappy, and you keep a hundred percent. And so that, that model has resonated, it seems. Okay. And so now you have the book coming out. Look at that. Look at that. Sponsor magnet. Let's go. When does the book release? January 21st. January 21st.

[00:03:05] Justin Moore: Sweet. So the, the subtitle is nice and juicy, Nathan. It's how to attract price and execute your dream brand partnerships. This is like comes from doing over 550 deals, with my wife personally in our own business, over 5 million in revenue, but also having run the agency for many years and paying out millions to other creators and have now been in the boardrooms with these big brands.

[00:03:28] Justin Moore: And I hear them saying, Hey, this is why we're not going to hire that person. And we are going to hire that person and they'll never say that to your face as a creator. And so these are a lot of types of things I talk about in the book. I love it. All right. Let's get to the board. Let's go.

[00:03:41] Nathan Barry: So we're going to do two things in this episode today.

[00:03:43] Nathan Barry: First, is that a business breakdown on your 600, 000 a year business. And then second, we're going to try to figure out how to take this book right here and use it to go from say over 600, 000 in revenue. to two million. Sound good? Let's go. All right. So first let's get those revenue numbers up here on the board.

[00:04:03] Nathan Barry: Okay. So for the last four years, give me the business breakdown. What were you

[00:04:06] Justin Moore: doing in revenue in 2021? So 21 was about 88 K. That was the first year that you could actually pay me. 2022 was, 288k, roughly. 23 was around 600k. And 24 was, we'll probably end the year about 630.

[00:04:29] Nathan Barry: Perfect. Okay. So, talk for a second about the cohorts that you ran in this, cause that tells a different story here as you've switched the revenue from 23 to 24.

[00:04:39] Justin Moore: Yeah, so that was the primary revenue model for 21 to 23 basically was I was running a A cohort based course, basically three times a year. and so I was having these huge capital injections, throughout the year. And that, that's what I thought the business was going to be. but like a lot of course creators, there was a lot of kind of pandemic boom associated with that.

[00:04:59] Justin Moore: I was doing basically three cohorts in 21. I think I did actually four cohorts in 22, three cohorts in 23. And then I ended it and I did my last one in 24. And I basically shifted the business model for the course to be on demand.

[00:05:15] Nathan Barry: Okay. So that, that explains the the huge jump from, you know, basically as the audience grew from 2022 to 2023, still a lot of cohorts and you switched to the business model, started to focus on the book.

[00:05:28] Nathan Barry: So that's the high level numbers.

[00:05:33] Nathan Barry: Now what I want to get into is how do you actually drive this growth? What does that funnel look like?

[00:05:40] Justin Moore: So for the last like basically four years, the call to action for every piece of content that I've done. Social media, at the end of podcasts, it's always join my free newsletter. And so, my newsletter.

[00:05:54] Nathan Barry: Yeah. So let me actually put the news. So the newsletter is at basically the hub.

[00:05:57] Justin Moore: It is the hub. Yes.

[00:05:59] Nathan Barry: And what are the ways that people are coming

[00:06:01] Justin Moore: into this newsletter? Okay. So there's, there's quite a few different mechanisms. So of course, social media, you know, Instagram, Tik TOK, YouTube, et cetera. I've got, a free, Evergreen masterclass or webinar.

[00:06:17] Justin Moore: Okay. that people can, join and then they basically get added to the newsletter. I do speaking, so I will, you know, shout out, the newsletter to a private community or if I'm on stage somewhere, that's always the CTA. I have an audit tool. which is relatively new to my business, but pretty bullish on, you know, basically using that as an, as an acquisition channel for the newsletter.

[00:06:48] Justin Moore: and, and then of course, I've got the book coming up, which heavily plugs into that. I mean, I think that sums it up. Those are the main ones.

[00:06:57] Nathan Barry: Okay. Now, do you have a paid offering? Yes. Well, I guess let's jump over here. Let's talk through the, the paid offer. So this is all the free stuff.

[00:07:05] Justin Moore: Yep. and then I do have a paid, so this is one other thing that I've tried, which is called, I call it the seven day pitch challenge.

[00:07:12] Justin Moore: and that is a paid challenge. It's 97. and something we've found to be pretty effective at, you know, getting people into the ecosystem, ascending into other, you know, the courses and coaching and things like that.

[00:07:27] Nathan Barry: Okay. Hey, I guess I put the newsletter at the center because everyone's coming to that.

[00:07:32] Nathan Barry: and so you might have someone going straight from social to the challenge and then the newsletter, like those lines. Everyone

[00:07:36] Justin Moore: gets added to the newsletter. Okay. Any, any time you become, whether it's, You're opting in for free, or you become a customer, or you get added to the newsletter. Because, you know, that's the primary mechanism I use to like, remind people about upcoming sessions and things like that.

[00:07:49] Nathan Barry: Okay, and then,

[00:07:50] Justin Moore: you have two more products here. I do. So I have a course, which is now on demand. It's called Brand Deal Wizard. and that is 14. 97. And then I have, asynchronous coaching. And so there is a, either a group support option, which is 2. 97 a month or a private support option, which is a thousand a month.

[00:08:15] Nathan Barry: Okay. So basically we've got three paid offers and then four, basically inbound options of how people can come in, to everything. And so if I understand correctly, when someone comes in from the, the masterclass, you're, you're directly pitching the, the,

[00:08:34] Justin Moore: at the end of the masterclass, I am pitching the course, but if they don't opt in, they're still on the newsletter and kit can get ongoing value.

[00:08:40] Nathan Barry: That sounds good. And so all of this gets pitched. So you're able to move people around quite a bit. And then from the brand deal course, I imagine you're upselling into

[00:08:49] Justin Moore: coaching. There is. I need to work on that though, because, because the coaching is still relatively nascent. We've got about 50 creators in there right now.

[00:08:57] Nathan Barry: All right. What are some of the things that are working really, really well? Like imagine if you had thousands of creators watching and you're like, Hey, here's the thing that's awesome that I want to tell you about.

[00:09:08] Justin Moore: I think the thing that's working really well, actually, one thing we didn't cover, which is important, is, Referrals, newsletter referrals.

[00:09:15] Justin Moore: Yeah. So whether it's Creator network, or like Spark Loop type referral, I have a, I think a pretty compelling referral offer. there's different tiers essentially. but, but that has been hugely successful at growing the newsletter and getting people into the audience. Okay.

[00:09:29] Nathan Barry: So. I want to dive into that because newsletter referrals are something that everyone thinks like, Oh, that worked for Morning Brew or whoever else, like I'll just turn it on.

[00:09:40] Nathan Barry: And then on autopilot, it will give me thousands of subscribers. And I would say nine times out of 10, that does not work because like everything in life and business, like there's no silver bullet. Like you actually have to put in the work. What are the things that differentiate a, an email referral program that works from

[00:09:59] Justin Moore: one to the next.

[00:09:59] Justin Moore: So I made a ton of mistakes when I started. The first being that my first Tier was too steep. I had it at five referrals. and so that just seems like a lot. A lot of people are like, I don't know, five people, like, I don't know if I'm going to do this. And so I got some advice from, from Louie early on that like, hey, make it one.

[00:10:19] Nathan Barry: Okay.

[00:10:19] Justin Moore: And make it really juicy. And so, the referral tier is basically we do this like, reverse engineered research every week where we see creators that are being, that brands are partnering with right there. And then we reverse engineer, okay, who's the person that actually is the decision maker?

[00:10:33] Justin Moore: What's their email address? What's their LinkedIn URL? It's like really, really valuable stuff. So we made the most valuable thing, tier number one and super easy to get. and so that has driven, and then there's other tiers, like all the way up to like getting free access to the course and things like that.

[00:10:46] Justin Moore: So it's like, I basically calculated a lead value. I was like, okay, if I can, you know, get this, what do I value a lead at? And it was pretty high. Where did you come

[00:10:55] Nathan Barry: to?

[00:10:55] Justin Moore: So I think, well, it's been a while since I've checked, but it was around 30.

[00:10:59] Nathan Barry: Okay.

[00:11:00] Justin Moore: for, for like a newsletter subscriber based on like the LTV that I had calculated.

[00:11:04] Justin Moore: So you're like, I could pay meta or I could give

[00:11:07] Nathan Barry: that level of value

[00:11:08] Justin Moore: to. And I did that for a long time. That drove a lot of, growth for me when I was spending a lot of money on referrals, back in the day, but then. I also, did about an 18 month trial with paid cold traffic, which was an adventure.

[00:11:25] Justin Moore: jury's still out on that, but, but yeah, I was very happy to do it, and it drove a lot of referrals early on.

[00:11:31] Nathan Barry: So, that was having the first referral tier quite low and easy to access and be really juicy. Yep. What other things stand out in a referral program that works?

[00:11:40] Justin Moore: So I think having a, You know, a reminder in basically every email that people can actually get referrals.

[00:11:50] Justin Moore: I think there's another mistake that people make is they just, people don't know they have a referral program. So I have basically a PS at the bottom of literally every single email that shows people's progress of where they're at. And there's like a, a secondary hub. What people can click out and see the the next so you see the the next tier and then if you want to see all The tiers you can click to the hub and like see everything.

[00:12:09] Nathan Barry: Okay, I like that Yeah, cuz a lot of people they'll roll it out. They'll launch at once and then they'll think oh, that's enough right and It never is. No anything else come to mind.

[00:12:20] Justin Moore: My general philosophy is like give away as much as possible You know, I yes. Yeah. Yeah be generous. I mean, I think that there's like a of course there's like a A marginal cost to like allowing people to take my course for example, but like people value that very highly and it's like a pretty low marginal cost for me other than overhead and so I'm like happy to like, you know, get as many people onto the newsletter as possible through referrals and sure I'm happy to give that one person, free access to this course.

[00:12:47] Justin Moore: Just as a quick anecdote, I had someone share their referral link on their YouTube community tab once and they got 230 people to sign up and got instant access to the course. So I was like, Let's do more of that. That's great.

[00:12:59] Nathan Barry: Yeah, I mean, you think of the light, the potential lifetime value of those hundreds of people, and it came with an

[00:13:05] Justin Moore: endorsement.

[00:13:06] Justin Moore: Well, the beautiful thing about my audience is that they are also influential. So there's this meta factor, which is really juices the referral program.

[00:13:15] Nathan Barry: Well, I think about that a lot with these creators who have sort of a meta topic, right, or where they're reaching other creators. And you, you have this ability for.

[00:13:26] Nathan Barry: Virality and sharing and all of that. That's why honestly, so many people are like, Hey, can I speak at craft and commerce versus some other conference, right? When they have a book coming out or something else, because they're like, There's 300 people in the room who all have, you know, on average, 10, 000 people listening to them.

[00:13:44] Nathan Barry: And so that reach and influence is huge. We see that, you know, with our friend Jay Klaus, right, where the way his stuff spreads, right? He goes on Creator Network. Mm hmm. And. He has, I think he has hundreds of people recommending him on Creator Network, because they're all, like, you have all these creators who have audiences who are like, yeah, Jay's awesome.

[00:14:03] Nathan Barry: Like, of course I'd recommend him. Right, right. You know? So like him and Pat and others, like, just have this huge advantage. Right. I love it. Okay, so what I'm most curious about now that we have the big picture and the breakdown of the price points, like what's the revenue contribution from each of these

[00:14:18] Justin Moore: offerings?

[00:14:19] Justin Moore: So of course it's, you know, up until now, basically it was like the, it was the cohort course that was like the vast majority of the revenue. but I would say the major buckets now are, the on demand course, of course, probably makes up around, 40 percent of revenue. coaching makes up probably around 30%.

[00:14:46] Justin Moore: and then sponsorships also make up around maybe 15 percent and then a smattering of other revenue with the challenge and, and other things like that.

[00:14:57] Nathan Barry: Okay. So it said the course courses around, can I draw a pie chart in real time and get the, We'll see. Let's try. So maybe let's go there. Okay, so I love having that breakdown of the revenue.

[00:15:09] Nathan Barry: So the course is the biggest thing. Usually, I mean, coaching is relatively new in this format, but that's driving a lot of revenue.

[00:15:15] Justin Moore: It is. There's a lot of attractive things about the coaching. Obviously, it's recurring, which is really nice. Honestly, it came in response to the alumni of the course who were saying like, okay, these four weeks were awesome, or I went through the, you know, on demand program.

[00:15:30] Justin Moore: This was great. but hey, I just got this email today and I don't know what to do about this particular situation, right? There's always like novelty or something. It just feels a bit more esoteric sometimes when they're asking for things you've never done before And so being able to support people in an ongoing fashion fashion felt pretty exciting And so I believe that the coaching is going to become the signature offer Okay one day and I think my my my wish Is that everyone got access to the course?

[00:15:59] Justin Moore: Who is it? I, I believe that the coaching should be the primary offer because there's the most, it just, the ROI is so insane. You pay us this flat amount every month and a lot of the, I have like Creators that are making six figures a month on sponsorships in the coaching program, and they're paying us either 300 or 1, 000 a month, the ROI is just insane, and they tap us as much or as little as they need, and it's a backstop, it's like having a coach on speed dial.

[00:16:24] Justin Moore: I just think the value is huge there, and so I really would like to say, hey, you join the coaching program, let's say you do an annual commitment, and then you get access to the course for free.

[00:16:31] Nathan Barry: One of my, like, business philosophies that I've had, I think, probably since like, 2013 12 is, if you want to make money online, the best way to do it is to teach a skill that makes money to people who have money.

[00:16:46] Nathan Barry: And the thing that stood out to me the most in what you're doing is like, there's this huge. amount of deal flow, right? Brands sponsoring creators. And that money is happening and all of that. And you've just inserted yourself into that process as a, Hey, here's how to do it better. Here's how to get paid what you deserve and all of that.

[00:17:06] Nathan Barry: And so you're not over here, like trying to do something entirely different and being like, but here's how it's related to money and you should pay me. It's like, look, you're I'm going to build a 2 million business because I'm just directly inserted into this line. And I think that market selection is a very important thing that creators don't talk about enough.

[00:17:23] Nathan Barry: All right. So, one of the things that I want to get into is the newsletter. How many subscribers on the newsletter now?

[00:17:28] Justin Moore: So we've got around 33, 000 creators on there now. And I'd like to talk about that a bit because I've, I feel as though I've plateaued a bit on the newsletter primarily because I think we increased the cadence.

[00:17:43] Justin Moore: Yeah. Of the newsletter. So we're doing four times a week now.

[00:17:45] Nathan Barry: Okay.

[00:17:46] Justin Moore: three broadcasts and one, evergreen sequence.

[00:17:50] Nathan Barry: Nice.

[00:17:51] Justin Moore: and, two things, one, basically because I'm not doing any sort of concerted acquisition efforts, churn, it was basically, it's been flat for the, for the last like six or eight months.

[00:18:02] Justin Moore: also because just the more sends we do, the more people that unsubscribe. Yep. But. Because we've doubled the cadence, revenue has also gone up. So it's like this trade off where it's like, you know, I know that I ultimately need to grow the audience. but I'm, I'm trying to figure out what is the, what is the best method?

[00:18:19] Justin Moore: I, I frankly think that the, the audit tool is going to be a big lever for that. I haven't really juiced that yet. Right. but as of like a month ago, it's, it's an amazing tool and it's automated. So. Yeah.

[00:18:30] Nathan Barry: What does the audit tool do?

[00:18:32] Justin Moore: So, oh man, this is something I've been dreaming about forever because, so I've done hundreds of audits on people's social profiles where I basically say, Hey, here's some facelifts that you can do to be more attractive to sponsors.

[00:18:47] Justin Moore: Because when I was running the agency, a lot of times we were needing to, basically soft vet. People to see if they'd be a good fit and recommend them to our client Which was the brand and sometimes we would be like this person doesn't even have their email address in their bio or some I can't Figure out a way to freaking contact this person.

[00:19:03] Justin Moore: Yeah, or You know the way that they talk about themselves in their bio is just disharmonious with what they're actually posting or like there's all these like Mistakes that I saw making. And so what I did is I audited these people's profiles and I said, Hey, here's like the top five things I think you should do.

[00:19:18] Justin Moore: But I was doing this manually, and so the audit tool automates it. And so I basically am using AI and other tooling measured against my own recommendations to deliver a, basically an email saying like, Hey, here's the, you can enter like your ig, your link, your your YouTube channel or your TikTok, and here's changes that you can make to actually.

[00:19:39] Justin Moore: be more attractive to brands. And so it's hugely valuable and it's customized too. So it's like, Hey, you posted, you know, three times in the last like week. Great job. You know, so like, it's like really customized. And so I feel as though I may even want to run paid ads for something like that, to a tool like that.

[00:19:55] Nathan Barry: I love tools because they stand out from what most people can offer. As much as what we do as creators is unique and difficult and all of that, like kind of anyone who's willing to spend some time can say, like, Take. information that's out there on the internet bundled together in a nice PDF and say, give me your email address and I'll give you this thing.

[00:20:12] Nathan Barry: Like that's pretty commonplace. But the tools really stand out as unique and they're getting easier to make right as you bring in AI and You know as you've scaled to your business, you can hire someone to build the tool like that.

[00:20:24] Justin Moore: Mm hmm,

[00:20:25] Nathan Barry: but it's just it's still unique Yeah, and so I think of like HubSpot got a ton of traction with their website grading tool Where they would tell you like, oh, here's how you're ranking SEO.

[00:20:35] Nathan Barry: Here's your site speed. Here's you know, here's five things to fix or there's a creator named Bryan Harris, his site is at growth tools. You know, he did a ton of these where he's like, wait, I could make all this content or I can do this tool. I remember talking to the folks at buffer who'd make the social media scheduling software.

[00:20:53] Nathan Barry: They're getting some insane number of, of, well email subscribers, but then, you know, people using their free tool. I want to say it's to the tune of like 10, 000 a day kind of thing. It was some absolutely ridiculous number. It was way bigger than KIT's total acquisition. And then, and we get worth 33, 000 new accounts a month.

[00:21:13] Nathan Barry: So then they were like 3x that or more. But it's like people want tools and so I love what you're doing with this, because I think that, it. It's not just about having a tool. It's like have a tool that has a point of view and like a strong opinion. And when you bake that in with the content and it's like, cool, do these action steps, or you don't know how to do those action steps, here's either free or paid training on how to implement that.

[00:21:38] Nathan Barry: I just think it's huge.

[00:21:39] Justin Moore: Let me, let me tell you, okay, you're just making me think of new things. Here's how much I suck, okay? SEO is another huge channel for me for the newsletter and I do not optimize for it. I rank number one for how much to charge for a brand deal. Okay. And I do not have that page optimized.

[00:21:55] Justin Moore: Like, I have like a simple, like, email capture thing on there but like, there's a ton of, I have so many articles on the blog that I rank number one or number two for and I'm just not doing a good job at like, I'm building the plane as I'm flying it. That's really, that's really hard. I feel like a common theme with a lot of creator businesses is like, yeah, I just don't know what I'm doing, man.

[00:22:12] Nathan Barry: Well, I mean, we're all figuring it out as we go because we're also like kind of inventing the industry as we go as well. One thing on that, if I could step onto a little soap box for a moment, I see that all the time. And it's even in my own business, right? Both as kit and my personal brand where, you know, these there's all of these things, this email funnel doesn't brand deal doesn't go to coaching, you know, as well as we want, right?

[00:22:36] Nathan Barry: Like And what we do is these all live in our heads. And the thing that I think makes the biggest difference is if you do a business audit and you just say, let's see, you have to separate figuring out what's wrong and the, like the work that needs to be done and actually doing the work. And so you, if you come in as an outside consultant to your own business and you make a list of all of these things, okay.

[00:23:01] Nathan Barry: We optimize that page. for SEO. We need to build out the masterclass to newsletter funnel, because that could be 10 percent better. You just list them all out. and then go rank all of them for effort and go rank all of them for impact sort by those two columns. And then separately you're like, okay, cool, well that Justin guy should probably work on this in his business.

[00:23:23] Nathan Barry: And then separately you go, okay, now I'm going to spend a week and I'm going to look and I'm going to pick out one high effort, high impact thing. It's going to take a ton of work and then maybe two or three. maybe medium impact, but very low effort. And I'm going to clean those up. And I think the act of switching from like, Oh man, I just someday I'll get to all of that.

[00:23:44] Nathan Barry: to actually turning it into a concrete to do list and saying, Hey, each quarter I'm going to do three of these things will make a

[00:23:49] Justin Moore: huge, huge difference. One of the things that I think perhaps this will resonate with you is that from the beginning, I always looked at this business as kind of like a skunk works project.

[00:23:59] Justin Moore: I never looked at it as like, Oh, I'm building a business. And so I've always pretty much reinvested most of the profits back into You know, things like newsletter growth, or things like hiring a copywriter, or all these things that, because I was looking at it kind of as a game a bit, because we were making revenue from our other business types of things with my wife and I personally, and one thing I'm starting to reckon with, I think, to try to get to cross some of these chasms that I have, the goals, is realizing that it's not a skunkworks anymore.

[00:24:27] Justin Moore: It's a business, I have multiple full time employees now, and I still have this mindset that like, I'll just take the extra money I'm making and like, hire, go hire, you know, a blog strategist or whatever. which is not good because, you know, I, I run into this trap where I'm like, Not paying myself enough and as long as I'm meeting payroll, it's fine.

[00:24:46] Justin Moore: And like all this stuff, which is not a good mindset to be in.

[00:24:49] Nathan Barry: What do you think would change if you switched into that like professional operator mindset?

[00:24:54] Justin Moore: Well, we're going to get into some psychological trauma from my last business that failed, unfortunately, which is, you know, I mentioned I ran this agency and it failed spectacularly.

[00:25:02] Justin Moore: And I have a, like a YouTube video about that. I had to lay off all my employees. It was awful. but. I've grown this thing really slow, this business very slowly because I'm terrified of that same outcome. Yeah. Of it failing and having to lay off everyone again. And so I've tricked myself into thinking, like, this is just like a hobby, it's a fun little thing.

[00:25:23] Justin Moore: Like, yeah, I have an employee's payroll, but it's not like, you know, the 50K, 60K a month of what I was with the agency. Right. And so I think it's probably like needing to flip in my mind that like, no, this is a fun, this is a business. It's a fundamentally different business. The economic engine is way better than the agency was, and like feel the, conviction to like double down on it.

[00:25:44] Justin Moore: I think that's probably where I need to go, but I'm just, I don't know. That resonates with

[00:25:49] Nathan Barry: me a lot. The last startup that I worked for, I joined, I think we were employee 14. And then at the peak, we were 90 people raised a huge amount of money. This is in, 2009, left in 2011. And the raised Like now it's not crazy amounts, but back then it was like 35 million over that time period, which just burned at some points burning a million dollars a month.

[00:26:14] Nathan Barry: And in that process I watched them go through three rounds of layoffs. Now I just led the design team. I wasn't like an executive there. And I watched all of that happen. And my version of that was like, Oh, I'm never going to be in a position where I have to lay people off. And so it's made me very conservative and methodical of how I've grown.

[00:26:32] Nathan Barry: And you see it creeping in, in some of these things of like, Oh, I'm not going to do this. Someone's like, why? And you're like, Oh, because blah, blah, blah. And then like, if someone pushes you on it and you go a few layers deeper in the why, it's like, because if I do this, then that means I have to do this, which means that if it doesn't work, I might have to lay people off.

[00:26:49] Nathan Barry: And it's entirely. the like emotional side of it, which is really important. But then when you break it down intellectually, you're like, well, hold on. Actually, if this started to decline, I'd see it coming and I'd be able to make, you know, I can make these five changes before I had to lay someone off. Or even if I did have to lay them off, I can help them find a great job with one of my other friends, creator businesses.

[00:27:13] Nathan Barry: And so I had to really catch myself in those mindset things because I was getting hung up on something like that. And when realizing like, Oh, the actual reality of that is like five bad things have to happen in a row in order to get anywhere close to that in this business,

[00:27:29] Justin Moore: this, so this coaching thing here, I mentioned that I think.

[00:27:34] Justin Moore: I have a feeling like this is, this should be the core offer. I've resisted growing this because, I, I, there's a playbook here. It's like, okay, the certification route, right? The hello seven route mm-hmm . Or the Dave Ramsey, you know, certification route where it's like you do a training, you are a certified.

[00:27:52] Justin Moore: Sponsorship coach from creator wizard now you go off and I get a royalty or something like that. Right. But the prospect of maintaining standards across hundreds of coaches, I just like play that out in my head and I'm just like, choke me. I don't want to do that. and so literally where I've been thinking to like get to here, I've been thinking, okay, like maybe there's a world in which I have five to 10 coaches who are each servicing X number of, of creators.

[00:28:16] Justin Moore: That's a great business. That sounds awesome. You want to call it a lifestyle business? Fine. but I feel like that's also held me back a bit because I'm just like thinking about life design stuff, you know? Yeah. So I don't know. It's tricky.

[00:28:27] Nathan Barry: Well, I mean, let's get into that. Like, what are you actually optimizing for in this business?

[00:28:31] Nathan Barry: I mean, it sounds like fun is a big thing. Like you've had fun is

[00:28:34] Justin Moore: a huge thing. I really dislike being away from my family. Yeah. This is an exception because this is a lot of fun. but it's like I was doing the speaking circuit. I was traveling, going to conferences in the growth stage. Cause it was really exciting and, you know, To some degree now that I've kind of established myself a bit, I feel like I don't need to do that as much.

[00:28:56] Justin Moore: and I just, I don't know, my kids are getting a little older and I just, I don't know. I like being home with them. and so I think it's kind of like growing a lifestyle business where I have a really, you know, healthy take home. I have people that I love working with. I've got a handful of coaches on my team and that's kind of like enough.

[00:29:14] Justin Moore: And then scaling within those constraints, scaling within those constraints. Yeah. Cause like, you know, I've had. Two acquisitions offer offers for the business already that I both of which I turned down You know, I just I feel very Like fixed on this idea that like I don't need much to like be happy and like love what I do every day And maybe this will tie into kind of why I wrote the book Because I feel like maybe it'll get me closer to the like the ideal life that I want to ultimately lead

[00:29:40] Nathan Barry: Yeah, that sounds good.

[00:29:41] Nathan Barry: Well, let's dive into how the book fits into all of this. So We talked before about you want to scale this business to 2 million a year. What profit margin

[00:29:51] Justin Moore: do you want to have with that? Ideally, so I'm at about 25 percent right now. and ideally I would like to, increase that to 50%, 2 million gross, 50 percent net.

[00:30:04] Nathan Barry: All right, so trying to get to grow to 50 percent profit. Now what else do you hope that the book does

[00:30:10] Justin Moore: for your business? I hope, I'm kind of looking at it as an extended business card to some degree. Let me tell you my fear first. Okay. Okay. The fear about the book. Which was that. If I wrote the book, no one would hire me for the course of the cook.

[00:30:25] Justin Moore: I've had a lot of anecdotal conversations with a lot of other creators that I respect. Our mutual friend, Tiago Forte, for example, wrote this really interesting article, around how TESOC course enrollments go way down, after writing the book. And so I had a lot of fear about like, Am I going to, like, destroy my business by writing this book?

[00:30:46] Justin Moore: and ultimately, I got some advice from Pat Flynn, who basically said, Look, you can do a one to one copy of the course into the book, and people will still hire you, because they need help with their specific situation. and so, that was, that was the fear, for sure. yeah. The hope though, you go ahead.

[00:31:04] Justin Moore: Well,

[00:31:04] Nathan Barry: yeah. So, so I just wrote down two things. first the hope is for growth, especially top of funnel. And then the fear is cannibalizing all of this. I understand that fear and I could absolutely see it happening. I do think that there's always these macro things going on. And so my take on, Tiago's essay is that there's probably 50 percent truth to it.

[00:31:28] Nathan Barry: And, and we'll never know, like, we didn't run a double blind A B test on,

[00:31:33] Justin Moore: you know,

[00:31:33] Nathan Barry: in the alternate universe. Tiago didn't write the book and, revenue continued to climb. But yeah, like, I understand that fear, but I'm not too worried about it in this case.

[00:31:45] Justin Moore: I, so this is, sounds really cheesy probably too, but it's not just about growth for me.

[00:31:50] Justin Moore: It's also legacy.

[00:31:51] Nathan Barry: Okay.

[00:31:53] Justin Moore: I feel like, like this next chapter of my life, after all the amazing success that my wife and I have had over the years, I kind of feel like it's almost my duty to educate the next generation of creators. My hope with the book is specifically about attracting people who are creator or who are sponsorship curious.

[00:32:14] Justin Moore: This has been my challenge is that this business has been built off of the backs of People who are having an active issue with sponsorships, right? They're like I have a brand deal in my inbox I don't know what to say. I don't know how much to charge I'm having a tricky situation with the brand and I just like I crush those leads because they just need It's like it's a painful thing, right?

[00:32:35] Justin Moore: and That is point zero zero zero one percent of creators are like actively searching for information about sponsorship strategy And so like what could I do to like serve them and for a long time? I thought it was the newsletter I thought it was the free social or YouTube But I realized like what if I had a slightly higher bar the 15 price point or whatever for the book, right?

[00:32:58] Justin Moore: Which is a bit of more of a commitment where I could actually speak to those types of people and so that that's a big You That is the real, like, bet that I'm making. That I'll be able to serve people who previously didn't think sponsorships were for them.

[00:33:10] Nathan Barry: Yeah, I think that's, that's going to be great.

[00:33:11] Nathan Barry: And it's packaged up in a way that like, it is complete information, you know, and it's, you can really dive in. it's giftable. Like, I think all of those things are going to make a difference where like, I always imagine when, when I'm planning and positioning a book, I always think about what's the conversation that's happening that I want the book to be recommended in.

[00:33:33] Nathan Barry: And when you play those out, like I can think of a ton of conversations where someone's like, Hey, I was thinking, like, I heard this example of someone getting traction with sponsorships, but I don't know how I would do it. And, you know, someone says like, wow. the book that, you know, I read this book that helped or that sort of thing.

[00:33:48] Nathan Barry: And it actually gets directly mentioned there. And that's when these things spread in the same way, like essays can kind of do it if it's like, Oh, here's this one essay. Newsletters honestly don't do it that well because they tend to solve very broad problems. Like if you, if you generally want to get better at sponsorships, if you want to live a better life, you know, form better habits, right?

[00:34:08] Nathan Barry: These are these broad topics that newsletters tend to serve. Whereas the book is like solving a specific pain point. Okay. So we have this business right here and we're thinking about scaling, you know, from 630, 000 in revenue to 2 million. The book is a big part of that. You know, this huge bet that you've made.

[00:34:27] Nathan Barry: How do you see that

[00:34:27] Justin Moore: playing out with the book? So I have a goal to, get the book in a hundred thousand creators hands in five years. Okay. When did you write that down? So that's a hundred thousand copies in five years. Okay. Which means basically, you know, 25, 000 a year. Okay. Basic or 20, 000 a year. And, I don't know how I'm going to do that.

[00:34:52] Justin Moore: and so I'm doing all sorts of crazy things. Like, I'm in talks with like a, the largest creator focused conference to get a copy in every person's swag bag. you know, I'm doing a hundred podcast tour right now. Right. Like this. Right. Like this. Exactly. Like this. and so I'm trying to pull every party trick that I can do.

[00:35:13] Justin Moore: I've recruited a street team of a hundred of my closest friends to recommend the book. And so I'm trying to do all the things that I can as like a basically a self published author. but I don't care if this is copies sold. Yeah. I, I, you know, one of the things that Rob says is like, just get your book in a thousand people's hands.

[00:35:30] Justin Moore: And you know, if the book is good, it's going to spread.

[00:35:33] Nathan Barry: That's such an important distinction because I see a lot of. Authors that either we really respect today or we're going to really respect very soon They have that same goal And if you look at like atomic habits, for example, it hit the New York Times list at launch and then it didn't hit again Maybe for a full year and then it like built this momentum and all that, right?

[00:35:54] Nathan Barry: So got it in readers hands and then it started to spread and spread and then it became this insane powerhouse And Martell with his book buy back your time which is, again, like very focused on a very specific problem, right? And he has the exact same mentality that you do, where he's like, Hey, I know that this book has a viral coefficient, right?

[00:36:18] Nathan Barry: I know that for every one person that actually reads the book, They'll recommend it to, you know, one or two other people, right? So we, you know, we list that as a K factor of like 1. 1, 1. 5. And so you have the same approach of, this is what Dan's doing. He's like, look, I will give out, anytime I think it will end up in the hands of a reader.

[00:36:39] Nathan Barry: I don't want it. Like, I don't want someone to do a bulk buy of 500 books and it sit in a warehouse or something like that. But like, if you can get it actually in the hands of readers, I will give away books. I will speak for free. I will do any of those things because I trust that those books will spread over a long period of time.

[00:36:54] Nathan Barry: Right. So I think that initial goal of a thousand makes sense before we dive into getting to the hundred thousand copies. I want to take this further and say, okay, say we hit a hundred thousand copies. How does that go? What impact does that have on the business? Right? If we have 100, 000 copies and then, you know, 2 million here.

[00:37:14] Nathan Barry: Yep.

[00:37:16] Justin Moore: What's in the middle? How do, how do we actually bridge that gap? So Here's my, my suspicion. I think that, I have no data to back this up, but I think that 25 percent of the people who read the book would have bought the course.

[00:37:30] Nathan Barry: Okay.

[00:37:30] Justin Moore: And so I think it's going to reduce course revenue.

[00:37:33] Nathan Barry: Okay.

[00:37:34] Justin Moore: But I think it's going to substantially increase This is my suspicion.

[00:37:40] Justin Moore: And so, coaching is really the lever that I think is gonna bridge, is, is, you know, cause I plug, I talk, again, this is, you can read it and go on your merry way and get a lot of value, but for those people who need extra support, I talk about the coaching and things like that in the book. and so, I think it's two fold, it's like, I'm hoping that there'll be like a, an effect that the book will have on, on increasing coaching, but I'm also doing other acquisition efforts, like potentially hiring a sales team.

[00:38:07] Justin Moore: Okay. for coaching, which I've never done before. Yep. and so, cause that, that's one of the challenges. If you look at these price points, this is basically three K a year. That's the, or 10 K a year. Yep. Those are pretty high price points to just sell straight off a page. And I've, you know, I've gotten 50 people basically in the coaching program right now, straight off the page had never had a sales conversation.

[00:38:25] Justin Moore: And so the question in my mind is always like, what, what would this turn into if someone could click here, schedule a Calendly link and like, Talk with someone for 30 minutes about this big investment that they're going to make. So let's do that breakdown. Yeah.

[00:38:38] Nathan Barry: Actually, first, before we get to the breakdown, I think that's a key difference that if we go back to Tiago's example, which I'm very, very grateful for Tiago for sharing all that.

[00:38:46] Nathan Barry: Yeah, totally. Most of the time people share big wins and they don't share like the byproducts or side effects that might not have been so good. And he sold 300, 000 copies of that book, probably more by now. And so it's a huge win. But, I think you're right that if we look at the fear of cannibalization, the way you're talking about it, if it cannibalized 50 percent or more of your course sales, That would be a hit to short term revenue and that would suck.

[00:39:18] Nathan Barry: But like, it's not that big of a deal long term because you're betting so much of the business on coaching. Is that right? I would say so. Yes. Okay. So with that in mind, at 2 just making up numbers here, but what's the breakdown of the business, at

[00:39:35] Justin Moore: that level? Where's revenue coming from? So, just a quick snapshot in time.

[00:39:39] Justin Moore: the 50 creator breakdown is 40. So 80 percent on group coaching and 20 percent on private coaching. Okay. And so, if I extrapolated that same percentage out, I think, I think this will probably look, I, I, okay. I think selfishly that the group support is the, is really the offer. It's a sweet spot of a price point where it's like in most creators, It's like, three hundred bucks a month.

[00:40:11] Justin Moore: And if I'm making one deal better, this number is out of reach for the mid, you know, long tail, even the a lot of mid tail creators. This is still a lot. And so I feel like this is the one that I, like, for example, when people join the course, there is a, before the checkout page, there's basically an upsell page that says, Hey, this You know, 72 percent of people who are alumni of the course are also in coaching, and this is the offer that we show on the upsell page, which is the group support.

[00:40:41] Justin Moore: So I really think that this sub offer right here is going to be the biggest part of my business. And so if I looked at here about how to bridge that, I would want most of it to come from that.

[00:40:51] Nathan Barry: Okay. So, but thinking as a whole, like 2 million, what percentage is coming from, you know, Coaching as a whole is that 50 percent like 50 is it 80 percent I want 80 percent Okay, let's write that down Yeah, so 80 percent from coaching so almost Nothing else matters Right.

[00:41:13] Nathan Barry: The other things are all

[00:41:14] Justin Moore: just in support of that. Yeah. And which is why thinking about like the current flow of how people are entering into the business, I'm still confused because if I want to optimize for this goal, right, everything probably needs to be retooled to like get people into the coaching program.

[00:41:30] Nathan Barry: So we're talking, what is that? 1. 8 million. Is that right? Is that 80 percent of 1. 6, 1. 6 million, 1. 6 million is 80 percent of the And so now it's all about like deal flow,

[00:41:46] Justin Moore: validation. Well also, that's why, cause right now the majority of people are on a monthly option. And I have, there's an annual option.

[00:41:57] Justin Moore: We've had a handful of people, we've done promotions around, you know, doing annual and stuff. We just tried a quarterly promotion. Yeah. Because that is. Oftentimes tied into how brands allocate budgets on a quarterly basis. So it's like, Hey, brands are allocating their Q1 budget right now. Join the program now.

[00:42:14] Justin Moore: So you can like take advantage of that type of idea. And that was pretty successful. And so this is another thing I'm trying to optimize is like, what's the best, payment cadence and things like that. so, but yeah, I really would prefer everyone. It's just so much easier for everyone to have to access to the course, the templates, the resources, the calculators.

[00:42:32] Justin Moore: I really dislike we recently, by the way, opened up. Anyone to join the coaching before it was alumni only. Okay. And so that was another change that we did recently too, where it was like, there's a lot of, you know, creators who are making seven figures right now and they're like, I don't want to do the course.

[00:42:45] Justin Moore: Just help me. Yeah, just help me. I don't want to have to do the course first as a prerequisite. Can I just join? And I, I said no enough times that I was like, this is kind of stupid. Like this person probably is like eligible to do it. Yep. I just want everyone to have the course. Like, so join annually, you get access to it.

[00:42:59] Justin Moore: I fear that like, if I give access to the course for just the monthly people, they'll turn immediately. You know?

[00:43:04] Nathan Barry: So I guess what we're talking about here is that getting that 80%, we're talking 100, 000 copies resulting in 80, I mean 1. 6 million a year in coaching. One, the coaching is recurring revenue. I love recurring revenue.

[00:43:18] Nathan Barry: Everyone who watches this show knows that, and so that's going to be easier to compound. We're going to have to fix some churn issues where, you know, there's a bunch of things in that. Okay. So there's two problems that I see here in, as, as we're making this jump. Okay. Problem number one is top of funnel.

[00:43:36] Nathan Barry: How do we get to a hundred thousand? The second problem is conversion. So as we break this down, it's basically at first, how do we get to 100, 000 copies? Yeah. Right. In the hands of actual readers. Second, how do we build a funnel that's actually going to convert those right people into coaching? Right. So let's go back to top of funnel.

[00:43:57] Nathan Barry: There's a bunch of things that I think that we can do here. If we come all the way back to, you know, your creative business. and where people are like the growth levers that you have right now. I think you're right. That audit tool is going to be a really big step. It points to this, like, are you making, am I making a mistake right now?

[00:44:20] Nathan Barry: I could know what mistake I'm making, right? There's a, a question that can be answered in, I don't know, four minutes, you know, less,

[00:44:32] Justin Moore: it's literally like 10 seconds. You just enter your handle.

[00:44:35] Nathan Barry: And so as you're going from like, you know, the question to the answer, it's really, really quick. And so I think that you could, my gut feeling is a lot of paid traffic.

[00:44:52] Nathan Barry: on the audit tool, driving into the book is going to be really, really effective.

[00:44:59] Justin Moore: Okay. So audit to the book, not audit to a coaching call or like a sales call for coaching. So still drive to the book or like that should be the main thing that we're, this is the question is like,

[00:45:12] Nathan Barry: what

[00:45:12] Justin Moore: do I, cause you're saying, okay, you've got an instantaneous answer.

[00:45:16] Justin Moore: Now go read this 250 page book. Like, that feels like a, I just put up a big roadblock to get people to hear.

[00:45:22] Nathan Barry: What I want to get at is, how do we find the right people and then split them and go

[00:45:32] Justin Moore: to a call? Right, so I have a scoring mechanism on the audit, so like maybe people who exceed a certain

[00:45:41] Nathan Barry: score. Oh, and you have that data.

[00:45:42] Nathan Barry: You know how many followers they have.

[00:45:43] Justin Moore: Yeah. Hmm.

[00:45:44] Nathan Barry: Right.

[00:45:45] Justin Moore: Yep.

[00:45:45] Nathan Barry: Because they just plugged in their social handle and you just scanned it all. And so I think what you're going to end up doing is having a few criteria that are going to segment them one path or the other. Yeah. Based on that. Ultimately, you know, maybe you're pushing everyone to the call and the book.

[00:46:03] Nathan Barry: Like you can, there's obviously you have their email, you've got them on the newsletter, there's things that you can do. But you're going to say, Hey, these people. are really worth getting in there. the episode where we do with Clay Hebert, which is inside my Flywheels community. He did this great breakdown of his speaking flywheel and how he does audits for people's intro and all of that.

[00:46:25] Nathan Barry: And he has one question. that depending on how they answer it, he either does the audit for them over email, which is what he promised. But if they have a certain answer to this one question, then he upgrades them and say, Hey, why don't we get on a call?

[00:46:38] Justin Moore: And

[00:46:38] Nathan Barry: I'll help you through that. And it like drives a whole bunch of speaking leads for him.

[00:46:42] Nathan Barry: And, but you end up with these, these differences. And so what I love is that you could drive a ton of traffic to the audit and then in your funneling, based on those criteria, go call or book that way. If someone's like, I've got. 107 followers on Instagram. I think I could crush it with sponsorships.

[00:46:59] Nathan Barry: You're like, great. Read the book. You know, I believe you. Right. Let's chat. You read the book. Let's chat in a year. You know, right. how does that land?

[00:47:09] Justin Moore: It lands. Okay. So two things are coming up for me about this. This is a great idea. I'm going to do this. I have two segments of my audience, influencers and kind of like non traditional creators.

[00:47:21] Justin Moore: So like, you know, newsletter operators, event organizers, podcasters, bloggers, people who like are not dancing on tech dog base. So they, and so the audit tool is not as good for them. Or I, I maybe, maybe the answer is I should invest in supporting more. Content types or platform types, maybe, to get more, you know, because right now it's like YouTube, Instagram, TikTok.

[00:47:42] Justin Moore: so like you think that probably is a good move to like audit LinkedIn or like audit

[00:47:46] Nathan Barry: a

[00:47:46] Justin Moore: blog.

[00:47:46] Nathan Barry: Let's go to the coaching that you have now. You have 50 people in the coaching right now. What's the breakdown of people in the coaching between those two groups? I would say it's

[00:47:54] Justin Moore: like 75 percent influence or 25% Okay.

[00:47:58] Justin Moore: Not traditional creators.

[00:47:59] Nathan Barry: And now we scale that program, what, you know, 5X or whatever. Yeah. Okay. what, is it the same breakdown? I think if I do paid traffic, it's, it's, do you want it, like, should it be, forget the top of funnel, all of that, we're going to optimize for that in a second, but what, if you're running your ideal business based on what's working, where you're providing value, who's coming in already, who it resonates with, is it still going to be that 70 30?

[00:48:26] Justin Moore: I think it's a much easier ROI conversation for a traditional influencer. Okay. Because they're getting active deal flow oftentimes. And a non traditional creator isn't. That's more of a proactive, speculative outreach strategy. That still works really well, but it's just like a more of a delay between results.

[00:48:45] Nathan Barry: Is the creator influencer market in the niches that you can serve with your content? Right where this is valuable. Is it big enough to support a 1. 6 million dollar coaching business? I mean, this is, it's big enough to support a 50 million coaching business. I think that's what it's getting at. So it's huge, right?

[00:49:03] Nathan Barry: We don't have a total addressable market problem. Yeah. And so So, if, as we're talking about, should we double down on this format for the audit or should we build a second funnel that's for these other type of people? My gut feeling on it is when the other people come in, that's great. They're welcomed.

[00:49:20] Nathan Barry: All of that. We don't need to pursue them. You only pursue them when you either already have amazing type of funnel for that group and you're like, Oh, I know how to scale this up really easily. which it sounds like you don't quite have that yet because the, the audits focus on the other group or you run into a total addressable market problem where you're like, okay, I need to grow both of these equally because I'm going to saturate one market and focus only on that.

[00:49:45] Nathan Barry: Got it. The biggest thing, people on the show will hear me go on this rant is like skyscrapers versus strip malls. And so many creators say, Oh, I want to build this and then this other thing and then this and I'll have all of these things in together. that will add up to 2 million in revenue, right?

[00:50:03] Nathan Barry: You've gone the skyscraper approach from a revenue perspective where you're saying, all right, we're going, coaching is the thing. Yes, there's other businesses that, that will support it, but we know what's the number one goal. You can actually do the skyscraper approach in traffic as well. And you can say, look, this is the one thing that I'm going to figure out and dial in.

[00:50:24] Nathan Barry: I'm not going to neglect the others. But I'm going to say, Hey, what would have to be true for me to spend a hundred thousand dollars a month on driving traffic to that audit? Right? Because we know if you're spending a hundred thousand dollars a month, 4 per lead, something like that. I don't know if you can get that lead price.

[00:50:44] Nathan Barry: We'll, we'll see. Right. Right. But then we're talking 25, 000 leads per month. Like we can hit this no problem with a hundred thousand subscribers, you know, the, the a hundred thousand copies. Right. Right. You know, and so then you need to be able to make money on the back end.

[00:50:57] Justin Moore: So, the question still exists.

[00:50:58] Justin Moore: Are we driving? So, Do you, so you think that this segmentation thing is the, is the true, like, magic of this part of it? Is like, really being able to,

[00:51:08] Nathan Barry: I think it's the new magic. I think that the true magic is an audit tool that people love and get some results. Because you can, on the front end for that, you can have a bunch of different ad copy partnerships, all of that, right?

[00:51:23] Nathan Barry: So if we have the audit up here, I can have all these different things, right? That come into it from a ton of different directions, right? Let's say that I'm doing. a webinar, like the audit might be the thing that gets people into the webinar, right? Like I think that the audit is going to be amazing for lead capture.

[00:51:43] Nathan Barry: And so I can have all these different types of traffic, all these different reels content. Yeah. Right. Like so many people when they're doing paid traffic, they're just like, Oh, I have these three pieces of creative. And it's like, no, you could, if this is really working, you could talk about this 50 different ways.

[00:52:01] Nathan Barry: You can have an affiliate or an influencer program of people talking about the audit.

[00:52:06] Justin Moore: Oh God, this is so interesting. so do, should this be the CTA for everything for the next two years and not the book? You would want to test what works

[00:52:16] Nathan Barry: better. I believe things are going to resonate with different audiences.

[00:52:18] Nathan Barry: Okay. Where there's some things that the book is going to, get in front of. But I think the audit, the audit promises instant value. I got to work for the book, but the book can deliver at a low price point on, you know, on so many things. And so I really think that, you know, the traffic source is coming into the audit, segmenting it into the book, or, you know, the call is going to get you the return on investment where you're going to be able to actually spend more on paid acquisition, right?

[00:52:52] Nathan Barry: Because you've got recurring revenue in the coaching business that lets you, you know, spend on the paid acquisition.

[00:52:59] Justin Moore: Can you give me any pointers on the call and the sales stuff? Because I get, I've had 50, 000 DMs. Hey, let me set, you know, pay on results, you know, for sales calls and all this stuff too.

[00:53:10] Justin Moore: I'm terrified of this. Right. do you think that that's necessary to get to this number? To have a sales team at the price point?

[00:53:17] Nathan Barry: I think you should test it. Okay. When I look at people, you know, so if we go to Dan Martell, Bonnie Christine, a bunch of these people who have, you know, higher priced, coaching offerings that are doing very well, you know, two, three, five million plus a year in revenue, most of them are going to a sales call.

[00:53:36] Nathan Barry: But here's the beautiful thing about traffic. You can test it and you can say, Hey, we're going to push people to, recording where like you can, you could set up a few of these funnels and play with it. What I would do if I were in your position, and this is what I'm planning to do for my five wheels course.

[00:53:51] Nathan Barry: Cause I have this exact same question is I'm going to do, you know, this first launch was entirely direct to sales page, right? And we did six figures in sales through that. And now I'm like, okay. As I play with it, I'm going to take maybe 10 to 20 sales calls myself, and I'm going to record them all and figure out what worked.

[00:54:12] Nathan Barry: And I'm just going to learn in real time. Right. And then I'm going to get some of my smart friends to watch some of the better ones and be like, Oh yeah, fix this, fix that. So they're giving feedback on various specific things, the scripts, all of those details. And then I'm going to distill it down and say, okay, can I Get this to something that I can teach to someone else and we're gonna record all of those calls and you know, we'll hire a couple of salespeople focused on exactly that and They're not creating scripts from scratch They're able to leverage and improve the things that I've already done how I talk about it my language Mm hmm and go from there and I think it's a very it's a process that you can test and iterate on but I think if you Really, really solve this top of funnel.

[00:54:55] Nathan Barry: I think you're in great shape and this gives you a lot of money to invest because you could even start. What's the total revenue from coaching right now per month? per month. I think we're at like 14 K MRR. Okay. So let's say you took three to five K of that and said, Hey, that's my ad budget.

[00:55:14] Nathan Barry: That's what we're going to play with every month and start to see what's working and what's going from there. And then you can also, if you want to test other parts in the funnel, you could say, Hey, I've got these sections of creative, but then this other one is going to be webinars that I'm teaching, you know, in front of other audiences.

[00:55:32] Nathan Barry: Or if you go to speaking, right? Have you done the audit as a CTA from the stage? No. I think I'd crush it. Because you're like, Hey. I've taught all of these things. If you want to know how you rank in these five categories based on what we've seen in your profile, go here right now, plug it in, and I'd love to shout out a few of you from the stage.

[00:55:52] Nathan Barry: Everybody do this and now you, okay, I'm going to do yours live, right? So two people get the live experience, you know, and then 300 get the automated, and then your, your conversion rate from the stage is going to be absolutely killer for getting email addresses, right? Because you've got email addresses from every single audit.

[00:56:11] Nathan Barry: I think it's

[00:56:11] Justin Moore: gonna, I think it's gonna work really, really well. All right, so I'm hearing invest more in making this killer. Yep. have the segmentation to maybe multiple funnels, sending some people to the course and some people to this. and A, B, test, copy, Use a percentage of the current coaching revenue on cold traffic.

[00:56:35] Justin Moore: Yeah, you know, the one thing that is, I'm a bit hesitant about the cold traffic stuff is I've spent probably around 100k straight to the masterclass registration over the last 12 18 months or so and I'm basically break even. and the biggest problem was being able to find, the right, Types of audiences who are resonating with the offer and some of it could have been the price point for sure Yeah of the of the offer, but I don't know cold traffic still scares me.

[00:57:02] Justin Moore: So I don't know. It's hard There's a lot that

[00:57:04] Nathan Barry: goes into it and the biggest thing that matters here with cold traffic is your payback period Right. Yeah, and this is something I I need to get better at right and so something that you might find is that The coaching is not a good payback offer. And so you might find that you need the seven day challenge.

[00:57:23] Nathan Barry: You might, right. So you get to test these different things and say, Hey, do we go straight into a sales call? Do we go into the other things, right? Depending on their answer, they might actually go into the challenge. I'll just say the seven day, right? Cause that has a price point on it. And then that might give you the 97 might pay back your ad cost.

[00:57:44] Nathan Barry: that you can spend a bunch more.

[00:57:45] Justin Moore: What is the title of the person Who would help with this optimization? Darrell Vesterfelt. Who is my current coach. But it's like marketing operations, like, I see all this and I'm like intuitively like, yes. It's a growth marketer. It's a growth marketer.

[00:58:02] Nathan Barry: Yeah, Darrell's very good at this stuff because he's done it a lot.

[00:58:07] Nathan Barry: Helps that you two shared a flight on the way out here. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, if you talk through some of these things in a very specific problem in that way, you can get into it. I do want to bring it back to the book a little bit because that's where we came to this. I think you have the right approach to being able to just give away as many copies of the book as possible.

[00:58:31] Nathan Barry: And so all the things that you're doing, you know, the street team, the podcasts, like just getting that message out there is absolutely what you should be doing. And the book is the moment to do that. So like really, really capitalize on that. Pro like on that moment. For how long? A year. Okay, a year.

[00:58:50] Nathan Barry: Yeah. As you, as you build up these other things, but they're, you know, like a lot of people will do a book launch for two months and they're like, well, that went well. And it's like, okay, what'd you do? What are you doing for the next 10? Right. Like, keep going. And then these other things give you the ability to like, just give away the book, right?

[00:59:06] Nathan Barry: And get it in front of as many people's hands as possible and spend money. on like paid acquisition and all of that. The, the book is not going to get you your payback period. I don't think I've really seen funnels

[00:59:22] Justin Moore: that do that well. I mean, a lot of, I've heard this from a lot of people who DM me and they're like, okay, yeah, just book is free plus shipping.

[00:59:28] Justin Moore: You just pay shipping costs and then you upsell them onto a call or whatever. And I don't know.

[00:59:32] Nathan Barry: Yeah. And it's probably worth testing. Yeah. but I really think that as you focus on, Giving away as many copies of the book, getting it in the hands of readers, you know, so stages, all of that. stages, podcasts, et cetera.

[00:59:47] Nathan Barry: I think also the audit is a killer conversion thing when you're on podcasts, right? Like each of those things that you could test what actually worked, and I would track the results. So when you're on a podcast, I would do a custom link, right? And so, you know, your creator wizard. com slash podcast name and see, okay, did that get me three leads or did that get me 300?

[01:00:09] Justin Moore: Can I share my biggest takeaway from our conversation? this has felt, even though I am employing the kind of skyscraper strategy for sure, which, thank you for that, that absolutely like ingrained in my brain, what we talked about at the top of the episode was very resonant, which was just like, there's this endless to do list of like optimizations I can make for all these tactics, right?

[01:00:32] Justin Moore: but as we talked about like what actually matters and what could potentially drive the business results. Even though it still feels a bit overwhelming as like a small team, it feels easier to accomplish when I know like, okay, this is all that matters, kind of. It's a bet. Right. But like, if I just like draw a circle around this thing right here and I'm just like, okay, it's the audit.

[01:00:56] Justin Moore: What are all the different levers that we can pull within this? If we do have conviction that this is a useful tool, which I do, this is really all that matters and we can just kind of let these to the beat of the back burner for now until we. have enough data or a large enough sample to test whether this is true?

[01:01:11] Nathan Barry: Yeah, we have a hypothesis around where to apply leverage. And we'll test that. We'll find out if it's accurate. But there's a lot of data from other, you know, related industries. We have a lot of anecdotes that this will work. And you have, early intuition and early data that says, Hey, this is worth focusing on.

[01:01:29] Nathan Barry: And so I think that's a great takeaway.

[01:01:30] Justin Moore: Well, I guess we're gonna have to do another episode in five years or in one year after I sell a hundred thousand copies in one year. but this has been great, man.

[01:01:38] Nathan Barry: That sounds good. okay. So Justin, where should people go to take the audit? Cause we're going to get that CTA

[01:01:44] Justin Moore: in there and then also to check out the book.

[01:01:46] Justin Moore: to do the audit, it's sponsor magnet. com slash audit. Nice. and if you want to grab the book, just sponsor magnet. com. Sounds good.

[01:01:53] Nathan Barry: Thanks for

[01:01:54] Justin Moore: coming on. Thanks again, man.

[01:01:55] Nathan Barry: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search The Nathan Berry Show. Then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.

[01:02:04] Nathan Barry: I'd love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were and also just who else you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for

listening.